Turn 4 Kiora 9/9 Kraken Combo

it works with more than just planeswalkers too. anything that gets counters :-) observe http://www.mtgvault.com/nba1523/decks/rare-candy/

Yeah i found this purely by chance and was just flabbergasted. I HAD to make a deck based on it

It's wonderful when you find one or two good cards then suddenly an entire deck appears in your head, isn't it? A friend of mine plays legacy, and three of his decks have all come from that thought. He keeps claiming that the decks just build themselves.

thats basically how i make decks. i find like 1 or 2 cards and then it just kinda forms in my head

This deck would not work in real world play. Everyone I know uses exile of some sort or at minimum counter spell. It also has zero defense and would fail instantly to any burn deck.

I didn't even mention naturalize or disenchant.

thats fine, but this deck is more a "proof of concept" than a competetive deck. it is meant for just casual fun. now if you would like a more competetive version, i already built it.

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/gilder-bairn-cccombo-breaker/

That's more like it, but I have to ask are you new to the game? These ideas don't work with good players only on nuuubs.

nope. been playing since zendikar. i just throw together decks in a short amount of time usually. my more...successful decks...tend to be a bit more advanced than this

That's how I built all of my decks. Either a combination of cards or a concept and the rest indeed builds itself. Usually I find more cards I'd like to include than the deck has open slots, so my decks usually turn out to be highlanderish except for the key cards.

i have the same problem. it usually takes me a while to whittle a deck down to playable numbers, but some decks are just tossed together and then they are done. funny part is those are the ones that often work the best lol

Here is what I do since I am using MTGVault:
First I add the key cards 4 times each. Then I add 20 or so basic lands as placeholders for the actual mana base. Then I add more cards that I find that fit my theme - but only one of each! Later then, when I am about to hit 60 cards or run out of ideas I revise what I have up to that point, toss out what works the least and up the numbers of those that fit the best. And then adjust the mana base of course and maybe add some other cards that help out with problems I identified.
That way I am free to brainstorm without losing any idea. I also don't care about colours at first because. And, this way, I might find new interactions and subthemes that I might build on.
Still a lot of 1-ofs remain, especially for the first couple of games I actually play, then, after some games, I start weeding out those that didn't impact enough, were unfun to play etc.

i start with a base idea like "what will the deck do?", "is there a combo engine?" after that i go looking for things that either fit the original idea or can work in tandem with the main engine. color means nothing in the beginning, because that only hinders me from making a great deck from the start. after that i look at basicly every card that deals with what im trying to do (literally. i love boolean searches and advanced search options on cardkingdom and starcitygames. so helpful!!!). once i have my master list, i import it into vault and start to chip away unnecessary peices (color still doesnt matter at this point). after i hake a few passes at the deck, i end up somewhere around 60-70 singles. from this point on, i look at color. if i notice i only have 2-3 cards of a single color and i feel i can drop them without hurting the deck design, then i do. once i narrow down my color base, i start fine tuning the deck machine. i look for cards that go well together, like the Gilder engine in this deck, and then see what else in the deck benefits the most from these interactions. from that i branch out a bit and see what else can benefit from those initial combos. slowly, this helps narrow the deck down to a more manageable thing. after that, i simply have to adjust my mana base to ensure the optimal mana draws happen for the deck to work, then just adjust the amount of each card to achieve synergy.

it sounds incredibly complex, but it really isnt. its mostly just time consuming

But totally worth it. The database I am using is http://magiccards.info/search.html
Sometimes I just click the "random card" button until I stumble about something interesting. If it is just interesting but doesn't spawn a deck idea immediatedly, I add it to a "deck" here I called "The Cool Pool" to not forget about it. Sometimes I check it and move single cards to existing decks.

Also, I think, this isn't any less time consuming than the more traditional ways since when we are about to actually build the deck, we know exactly what it will contain, card for card, we just have take the cards out of the binders. Whereas back then you changed your mind in the middle of deck construction and then had to put back a lot of cards. It's like cooking chinese meals: The preparations take longer but the actual cooking is very fast :)

very true. i actually just did a quick throw-together that ended up being a lot easier than i thought it would be. check it out.
http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/f-your-land/

why thank you :D

im working on a new one that uses that combo as the main engine. its a superfriends deck focusing on using PW to dominate

please do! im always trying to break the game. my friends hate me for it rofl

but if you wanna try delaying a bit, check this one out

http://www.mtgvault.com/greggygreg/decks/stall-for-the-kraken/

anytime my fellow player :D

lol i seriously considered it, but why would i really need them with that doubling ability? yeah it would make more krakens, but i can just buff her some more and then do it again next turn :D

Doubling season´s first effect applies on planeswalker´s counters, so they enter the battlefield with twice the amount of loyalty. That would not synergize directly with the gilders, but would make like a second way to obtain the kraken combo, what may be nice depending on the level of removal in the deck you´re going against.

also a fair point. i often forget that they enter, THEN get their loyalty counters. something i will consider i guess

Come to think of it... Maybe I'm missing something here, but to me it seems like pulling it off in 4 turns would still be virtually impossible. There's simply not enough mana to have 2 Gilders on the table (needed for the emblem since you can't use two of Kiora's abilities on the same turn and there's nothing to untap a Gilder with) and still manage to play Kiora that early. Someone educate the nooblet here?

Not that turn 5 wouldn't still be awesome, the combo rocks.

I'd maybe consider Gyre Sages for mana, what with all the Graft and Bioshifting going on.

I thgouht you only needed one gilder, as the mantle allows you to tap or one manna, then uptap useing the guilder. As long as you have traning grounds in play!

Derp. Well, as said I was probably missing something. Been too long a while, the UNtap symbol confused me. That should make it a bit more feasible at least, yeah. :D

you can get the emblem out on turn 5 but you have to be very lucky.

you need 4 lands, 1x 1cmc creature, the mantle, the ground, kiora and the bairn.
Turn1: land + mantle + bogle
T2 (draw a card): land + equip bogle
T3 ("): land + bairn + equip bairn
T4 ("): land + kiora + enchantment
T5 ("): use combo

you must have 9 cards to do this combo. you can start with 7 and get till turn 5 11 cards in total. 9 are needed!

the deck poster wrote "if done right". Maybe he can explain how he would play this turn by turn and ending up by T4.

Lands count as part of a combo? D:,

also why do you need the boggle?, and why isnt traing grounds in your discription? you posted?

Sorry im just confused >.<

you need at least 3 lands to play the bairn and 4 to play kiora. that's why I mentioned the lands.
I took the bogle as a starting creature. It can easily be ignored but then you are 1 mana short for turn 3 if you want to play bairn AND equip it.
last but not least the enchantment I mentioned was the training ground ;)

actually the best form of the combo is:
T1: Mantle, Island, Training Grounds
T2: Land, Bogle, Equip Bogle,
T3: Land, Gilder, Equip Gilder
T4: Kiora, Use Gilder to buff Kiora, Use Kiora's ultimate

I know what my next project is going to be.

now thats what im talking about!

Posted my own version. http://www.mtgvault.com/kjsj3/decks/gildered-walkers/ Wouldn't mind playing this at fnm once I get the cards.

ehh, why is there a Bogle in this combo? Am I missing something?

T1: Mana dork
T2: Gilder Bairn
T3: Mantle, equip on Bairn, training grounds
T4: Kiora. Tap bairn for 1 mana. Use bairn ability for 1 mana to get 4 counters on Kiora. Then tap Bairn again, gain 1 mana. Use mana to untap bairn, double Kiora's counters to 8. Continue until you get infinite counters on Kiora. Then use her emblem, which you can proceed to do every turn, resulting in exponential Krakens.

not fully working because helix has shroud. http://www.mtgvault.com/troopa/decks/win-combo/ with this 5 cards you can get a 5 turn win. You just need those 5 cards and 3 mana.

Loved the deck idea so I made my own version of it, its very similar but I would play "Cloudfin Raptor," over Bogle since you can give any of your creatures hex proof with the Frogling (Cloudfin makes the deck more aggressive). I would also consider trying to stall the game and play a more powerful planeswalker like karn.

dont underestimate the power of the bogle lol

ramp is a good idea, but there are few ramp spells that are 1 or 2 mana that actually put the cards onto the field untapped

but the bogle is a boss!

I agree Bogle should be replaced

oh ok. i replaced it with Sylvan Caryatid

I see why the ramp is good but the bogle is indeed boss and it is enjoyable to see opponents (especially friends who do not like your G/W Bogles deck :p ) cringe just a little with a turn one bogle; all the while you smile.

maybe but it would be a waste since his combo is self-supporting. its an extra cog in a well made clock

i cant see it. says access denied :(

yeah i was debating this with my circle of player friends last night and darksteel reactor was a hot topic in the gilder discussion. i like that deck idea too :D

nah doesnt really fit the deck though

I'd like to point out that the deck can do infinite damage since you didn't see that.

I did see that

But again that's not infinite damage, that's infinite creature power.

so its got more than 1 win con. ether way I think its a fun deck cause there are more competitive ways to play this combo. like with darksteel reactor

all it takes is a creature with infinite power and the paragon and its game over, sans bounce or removal spells. i only put 2 in there to kinda balance it out, but i can adjust it for 3 to 4

Put jinxed choker in the side for infinite direct damage to players :P...

HECK IF THAT IS TOO SLOW TRY TALON OF PAIN!

DISCARD A CREATURE CARD AND PUT A +1/+1 COUNTER ON ME, BITCHES!

discard a creature? youre confusing the choker with the idol rofl

...no i meant myself...cause i was trolling...and lotleth trolls effect allows you to discard a creature card and put a counter on him....

T^T

I thought it was funny....back in the box I go...

i would have been more likely to get it had you mentioned Lotleth Troll beforehand >.>

Ill remember that strategy and use it in the future! forecast jokes before casting them! What were your thoughts on the artefacts btw?

i like the idea a lot, but not sure if i would include it in here. maybe a different build that has choker and a darksteel reactor or two would be a better choice

cool, if you don't mind i would like to try my hand at that deck!...after im done with the two im building right now..

go for it. im not gonna say no. just share the link in this comment chain when you finish it so we can bask in the beauty of it :D

just saying choker would be a bad choice cause in response to u ending ur turn after u put counters on it they could destroy the artifact, darksteel reactor makes you auto win when it gets enough counters and its indestructible

avoid fate?

I guess you could do that but then your talking about playing vintage or legacy where this deck will not hold up, plus once again your adding another card to your win con and you want as little cards as possible for combos/ protection. Don't forget you do have the simic charm to give everything hexproof if needed, but your also hoping to win turn 4 if everything has gone correctly

avoid fate is modern because it got timeshifted... but your right smic charm is cool, but i thought that was creatures only?

Avoid fate is modern because it got time shifted...i think?

Simic charm is awesome, but only protects my creatures , not my artefacts..right?

here is the deck, its almost midnight here so there probably will be allot of holes..

http://www.mtgvault.com/necrumlsice/decks/pillipalla-pop/

nope, simic charm gives all your permanents hexproof

IN IT GOES!

yes, simic charm is very powerful and could be a better answer in more situation rather than "avoid fate"

love simic charm! so OP!!

you're insane in the head. don't listen to this guy HE'S CRAZY

aww im blushing ^.^

for what? i have nothing that requires that much mana lol

MAYBE if i had omnath, but nah

it's still mana gen, also you cant count on having paradise mantle/training grounds out every game.

@squidfreak
every deck should have a plan A or B so obviously with a combo deck you might not always get them. There is no point to having infinite mana cause the deck doesn't have a use for it. Anyways its more of a fun combo because it takes 4 cards as opposed T1 combos that only require 2 cards for the combo such as "splinter twin" and "pestermite"

actually, better idea. Birds of Paradise!

that was something I thought about but id rather leave him in with the way you set your deck up so you could have a turn 3 win

Pssh Nicol Fucking Bolas dude. Game over!!!

Sure that works too. I mean you would be going 4 colors but thats up to you.

Ral for inf turns?

No not colors. Gilder can be played with only blue so i could stick with grixis easily.

Ral for infinite turns would be just hilarious. I would totally do that!

Did you see the version of this that I posted?

Negative. Gimme a sec and i will check it out

haha, definitely built one of these with ral, it's hysterical to play, gotta say you outdid yourself on this one

thanks dude. glad to see im still rocking the top of the hot page :D

sure, it's always nice to see stuff that's really creative up there

Jace the Mind Sculptor?? you ultimate and flip their deck into their graveyard and they sit there wondering why just why that just happened

except jace is almost $100 a pop. thats a tad much for just 1 card to me

This is kitchentable modern. Im not adding counterspells that are prevalent in modern competitive

No, bioshift is good here. It seems to play more green style, anyway.

i dont mind it one bit! i left you a comment by the way :)

You just earned a sub for the combo. That is absolutely beautiful

why thank you :D

Hmm... paradise mantle... never seen it before... it would make a nice addition to my skull clamp deck.

I think the paradise mantle / gilder bairn combo is really pretty universal. This could go along with charge counters in artifacts, a planeswalker deck, dark depths, tower counters to win the game, -1/-1 counters, the possibilities are endless. As long as the deck has blue or green!

i agree but i want to point out a few things.
#1: why would you want more counters on dark depths? seems like a bad idea to me
#2: helix pinnacle has shroud, so no tower counter replication sadly
#3: you really only need blue since gilder is hybrid U/G and the enchant is mono blue

Training Grounds reduces Gilder Bairn's untap ability down to 1 U/G hybrid from 3, Paradise Mantle allows me to tap Gilder for 1 U or G mana, use the 1 mana produced from Mantle to activate Gilder's ability and untap it, thus allowing me to repeat ad infinitum. Better?

Ah yea, I never even thought about the ability to repeatedly tap/untapping of the Gilder... Good job man

thank you kindly :D

D: MIND= BLOWN!

that seems to be the general consensus when people see this. i just cant believe im still in the top three of the hot page

overall the deck is built based off that one combo. it really is all about getting kiora out and going for broke with her ultimate, but anything else with +1 counters on them can be pumped to insane P/T levels. The lands are a good idea so i will be swapping them in and dropping reborn. as for brawn, i like him, but how would i get him in the grave fast enough? also, what other better ways do you know of to do +1 counters? im always willing to adjust a deck to make it better

you really only need 1 big trample critter, perhaps Rankor for paragon? gives trample and pops back if the critter goes bye bye?

see what i was going for was having a kraken hit the field and get a counter from one of my various graft sources. all i need then is a paragon and i now have a 10/10 trample to start my 5th turn at best. plus paragons effect is a field effect vs rancor which is a single target

He only boosts warriors. Kraken =/= warrior. I would recommend something like Kathar's crusade. cheap and easy +1/+1s pluss if you are guilderbarning up counters with mantle bam!

first ability is warrior focused but the second is seperate line and therefore new ruwel (rule). anything with
+1/+1 gets the trample warriors just get the effect for entering the field of battle.

that was supposed to be floded grove. fixed it lol

no only his first effect works on warriors. his second effect makes ANYTHING with a +1 counter have trample. hence the graft sources

Already beat 'em to it. http://www.mtgvault.com/kjsj3/decks/gildered-walkers/
Hand disruption wouldn't be much of a threat(provided you went 1st), Counters shouldn't be to much a problem. Burn/Removal is what I'd consider the biggest threat for this deck (unless your opponent is running extraction).

rofl didnt even have to respond. thanks KJ :)

yeah im aware this isnt competetive. i usually play casual games so i dont nromally see crazy thing like thoughtseize, anger of the gods, or dreadbore. if i ever play a competetive game with someone though, i use on of my other, more viable, decks

as fast as this combo can be done, proliferate is a waste of time and mana. its a great mechanic, but not here

Waaaaaaaaaay ahead of ya on that one

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/gilder-bairn-cccombo-breaker/

see the newer, more competitive version

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/gilder-bairn-cccombo-breaker/

DOOM BLADEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!?

until i cast delay on it, then go infinite turns with Sage of Hours lol

Correct on the Paragon and Hydropon, and also correct on the Simic Charm. Bioshift is so after making 1 of my Hydropons incredibly huge, i can shift most of the counters to a single Kraken and win on turn 5

you want help with your deck? dont troll the hot page and you might just get help

Like the name choice and love the card. ran Elesh in many esper and EDH builds and it tends to do very well as a hero.

ok im missing what you are saying. i already know you can only get one emblem a turn and nothing else. but on each SUCCESSIVE turn, i will have 1 additional 9/9 Kraken token from the extra emblem i make.

edit. random "s" that wasnt supposed to be there. fixed it

That's why you run multiple copies.

4 pieces to this combo (including planeswalker), odds aren't in your favor, plus one of them doesn't even have four copies, plus there isn't any protection while setting up the combo. Do you just keep mulliganing and hoping you get all 4, or do you just keep top decking and just believe in the heart of the cards?

The base of the combo consists of 3 cards with a low cmc so a mulligan or 2 shouldn't hurt to badly. Simic Charm is there to give your stuff hexproof.

You can't get a win condition with just the three cards so the combo would have to be at least four cards.

your missing the vigeon hydropon u will have counters on all your creatures and u can pump them up with just the bairn and mantle

right, but hydropon is still a card so the combos is still 4 cards

A full combo requires 4 cards. The base of the combo only requires 3, leaving the 4th optional.

I was just trying to say that the deck might get luck and win quick but has a chance of being unlucky and with no cards counter a bad start this might loss to a deck that it would beat otherwise. Just trying to help.

if you want a better way to get what you need, then try this one. its built for modern competetive

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/gilder-bairn-cccombo-breaker/

oh yeah, i like that deck a lot better. More defensive and still has the offense.

yeah i made this one as a proof of concept, but the other one i plan to make and use. im about halfway through making it in reality. ive tried some proxied playtesting and it performs beautifully. i cant wait to debut this at modern FNM

I only need a few counters to make him go off, and why would i even use him when sage of hours lets me take as many turns as i want?

Go look at the gilder bairn combo breaker deck i made after this one. Its the more competitive version

YGOPRO, lets play. :)

sorry KJ, but i dont really have the time to get into it. i rarely use cockatrice as it is, and im more into magic now because its more strategic

:( I wanted to play your dragon deck. I've been playing a lot of yugioh lately. I guess its cause I haven't been to a magic tournament (where I normally play) since December. Hopefully ill be able to go to the m15 prerelease.

i ended up forgetting about the prerelease here and now i cant afford to go. i can still get stuff after it comes out, but now i dont get to play with the new stuff early :(

as for my dragons, as bad as this sounds, im considering retiring them along with the rest of my decks. i have one friend who has a single deck, and all the people at the card shop i go to are all running current stuff, and i cant compete with it. i would rather devote my time to being that much better in magic since i know more people that play it over YGO. i can promise you one thing though. if you want a taste of what its like to play my dragons in magic, then try playing against this deck my buddy runs: http://www.mtgvault.com/razzan/decks/kingdom-of-thy-dragon/
it is just as brutal as my dragons are and just as dangerous. DO NOT write this deck off as an easy kill. ive seen it swing with over 50 dragons on turn 5.

build a penguin deck. you probably have a lot of the cards. I've taken out some powerful cards/decks with penguins.

lol will look at the idea. currently toying with a scry based izzet deck and a legacy GB discard using waste not and deathrite shaman, not to mention a few other side projects

Is there any way that I can send you replay data of a match I played with penguins(yugioh)?

None that i can think of except email, and i dont want to post that in a comment

Yeah that was the general consensus when i first posted this. I topped the hot page for 2 straight months

That it did. Thoughts on new edh decks?

you seen the commander spoilers?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/commander-2014/

Im still relatively new to edh myself with only a single deck (R/W Iroas), but i may have to get all 5 of these ones, or at least certain cards from them. This round of edh decks are sexy, although i still didnt see anything that topped my fav from commander 2013, Serene Master. That being said though, the Masterwork of Ingenuity looks to be the most sought after card in this years set.

Indeed it is