BEST Tyrn 1.5 Kill Land Dek??

He could replace Wrecking Ball with Volcanic Upheaval to forgo the black required.

What's the cmc on that? needs to be 4 cmc or less, and it needs to give option choice to remove creature, or land, in case they get a semi big (3/4+) creature out (not likely to happen). I think I saw Volcanic Upheaval, as I name sounds familiar, and as I read thru 50 to 500 land destruction cards in the database. After doing that, I didn't see anything that was as good as wrecking ball for destroying both creatures, land.

I can, and will also look it up. If it's a good alternative, will use it, if not, I have birds, city brass, mana confluence, and can add 1 red black dual land, 1 green black dual land, so black cost of Wrecking Ball is not a problem.

It costs {3}{R} and only removes a land. It's still an instant though.

Looked up Volcanic Upheaval, and it's 4 cmc, 3 colorless, 1 red, destroy target land. Plenty of 4 cmc land destruction cards say the same. Wrecking ball is better because it gets rid of a either a creature, or a land at 4 cmc.

Plenty 4 cmc land destruction, yes, but most are sorceries. Wrecking Ball and Volcanic Upheaval are, to my knowledge, the only instant speed land destruction cards

Tho instant speed is better. Wrecking Ball is still better because it removes creatures, an or land, for the same mana cost, because of that it doesn't matter that it's a sorcery. Yes it would be even better if it was a instant instead of a sorcery, but as a sorcery it's still better than any 4 cmc instant speed land destruction card, that only destroys land, and nothing else. Versatility trumps instant speed, unless, except for the times when there is a important reason why instant speed is more important (example instant speed spells in a werewolf deck, so that can pass turn, flip werewolves, and do something during opponents turn, and not lose tempo, or using instant speed draw during opponents turn in a miracle deck.)

Why not have both instant speed land destruction spells? Hit them after they fetch to make them lose a life for nothing?

Heard of Boom/bust, but if remember right, it either doesn't have the right colors, or, it only targets nonbasic land, or it cost to much mana, or it blows up both my land, opponents land. Will look it up, or you can tell me what it does.

Boom // Bust is straight red, on both sides. Boom costs {1}{R} to destroy one target land you control and one target land your opponent controls, this is where the fetch land trick I mentioned comes in. You target one of his lands and one of your fetch lands, then sacrifice your fetch land to its own ability in response to Boom and because the opponent's land is still a legal target, Boom will resolve and destroy it.

Bust costs {5}{R} to destroy all lands.

Looked up Boom/bust. It destroys both my land, and opponents land. I could use more fetch lands, and doing so, would improve my land destruction draw, so don't land destruction stall out, due to bad draw. And at 2 cmc, it would help get out a turn to land destruction drop on those uncommon times where no turn 1 Bird, Llanowar Elf drop. I can probably cut 1 Stone Rain, 1 Wreak Havoc, an or 1 Molten Rain, an or 1 of my 1 of's, to make room for 2,3 of them, as long as run more Fetch lands

Because the trick requires a fetch land in play, I'd personally only run 3 Boom // Bust.

Another problem I am seeing, is: The reason why I would want to run Boom, is that if turn 1 fail to drop a bird, elf, then want to turn 2, 2 cmc Boom. The problem with that is: 1. I can't tap fetch land like Wooded Foothill for mana, which means I have to sac it, then search either a stomp grounds, basic mountain, forest into play, then I cast Boom on turn 2, then destroy opponents land, then my land, OOPS.

Only way a turn 2 Boom drop, without a earlier turn 1 Bird/Elf drop, is going to work, is if I can tap the fetch land for mana first, then cast Boom, then sac the tapped for mana fetch land, search into play stomping ground, forest, mountain.

The problem with doing that, is Wooded Foothills the fetch land, does not tap for mana, before sac, fetching.

So is there a fetch land out there that can tap for mana, first, even colorless mana first, in order to cast Boom, on turn 2, before sac, fetch? I don't know of any.

If can't cast Boom on turn 2, without the aid of bird, elf, without also destroying my land, then Boom would be pointless in deck. The ONLY reason for Boom to be in deck, is to cast Boom on turn 2, without the aid of a bird, elf.

Turn 1 play land, pass turn. Turn 2: either: play non fetch land, cast Boom, destroy opponents land, and my own land: FAIL, or play fetch land Wooded Foot hills. Can't tap Wooded Foothills for mana, can't cast Boom turn 2: FAIL, or play fetch land that can be either tapped for mana, or sacrificed, tap fetch land, tap non fetch land, cast Boom, destroy opponent Land, it destroys my land, because can't sac it, because already tapped fetch sac land for mana, so can sac, fetch land, FAIL.

Not seeing a way to cast Boom on turn 2, without a Bird, Elf

Taking Boom/Bust out, because can't cast Boom/Bust on turn 2 without a bird, elf, because no fetch land that can tap fetch land for mana, before sacrificing it to fetch, search land into play

Need a Flagstones of Trokair type of land for Red, Green, where it tap for 1 green, or 1 red, and then when it goes into graveyard, you can search for a Mountain, or a Forest.

Trokair: Tap for white mana, if, when, if Trokair goes to graveyard, search for plains, and put plains into play tapped.

Now that would work:turn 1 land pass turn, turn 2 play Trokair, tap land, and tap Trokair for 1 white, or 1 colorless, cast Boom/Bust, destroy opponent land, destroy your land, Trokair goes to graveyard, search for a plains to put into play tapped.

Only problem: 1. If ran 2,3 Trokair, it would ruin mana base for deck, 2. I don't, won't run plains in deck, 3. Because of points 1,2, Trokair won't work.

Ok, I scoured, searched the card database, and can't find anything that can make Boom/bust playable on turn 2, without a Bird, Elf, that won't mess up deck. I mean I could put in memnites, and infernal plunges, and mox opals, but that would mean in order to make room for those cards in deck, I would have to cut land destruction, other important cards, and land destruction, other stuff, things, would be a lot less consistent.

So because of that, taking Boom/bust out, unless someone can show me how to cast Boom/Bust, by itself, on turn 2 without a bird, elf, memnites, mox opals, infernal plunges, etc, helping it to get out turn 2.

The ONLY PURPOSE OF 2 cmc, Boom/Bust, is to cast it for 2 cmc, on turn 2, without aid of bird, elf, mox, memnites, plunges, etc, for 2 mana. The purpose of Boom/Bust would be to Turn 1 land, pass turn, turn 2 land, successfully cast Boom/Bust, so that it only affects your opponent, not you.

Right now I don't see how that's possible, unless someone shows me how, so because of that taking Boom/Bust out, because it not do its purpose of turn 2 drop, without help, unless someone shows me otherwise.

So because of that, Boom/Bust comes out.

Would like to make it work on turn 2, without help tho.

Simian Spirit Guide could help with a turn two Boom

Ok, will look it up

Looked up Simian Spirit Guide. The problem with using Spirit Guide, and Boom, or Boom period, is that Boom is having yo have help, whether it be a Bird, Elf, Spirit Guide, to get out Boom on turn 2. The point of putting Boom in deck would be to be able to cast it out, on turn 2 with NO HELP, for its 2 cmc cost, using 2 mana that have available on turn 2, in case your not able to cast a bird, elf turn 1, then cast either 1 of 4, 3 cmc stone rain, an or 1 of 4, 3 Cmc Molten on turn 2.

That's would be the goal, purpose of putting the Boom in the deck.

Using Simian Spirit Guide, to help Boom come out on turn 2 is like using Bird, Elf to get Boom out on turn 2. The problem is What if you don't get a bird, a elf, a spirit guide? Answer no Boom out turn 2. The point of putting Boom in deck would be to:

TURN 1: Land, no bird, no elf, no spirit guide in hand, pass turn.

TURN 2: Land, no Spirit Guide in hand, no bird, no elf, no guide first 2 turns, cast play Boom, on, during turn 2, have it only hurt your opponent, not you.

That is NOT possible to do. And if that is not possible to do, then Boom does not belong in deck.

The other problem with running either Spirit Guide, or Mox Opal, or Memnites, or infernal plunge, Boom/Bust, etc, is all the deck slots, hoops you have to jump thru.

It's hard enough to find room for Boom/Bust, in addition to Molten, Stone Rain, Roiling Terrain, Wreak Havoc, Wrecking Ball, etc. Now add in 2,3 spirit guide. There isn't room. What cut? Not Slime, which destroys artifact, enchant, land 2/2 deathtoucher, can be used by Mimic vat. Not Avalanche Rider same as Slime but 4 cmc, instead of 5 cmc, an except no destroy artifact, Enchant. Not birds, elves, ramp. Not Brutalizer Exarch, destroys like bamblecrush on a 3/3 creature stick, that tutors, searches for creatures, for 6 cmc. Not 6 cmc Charmbreaker, 4/4, that let's me reuse land destruction cards from graveyard, pumped by casting instant sorceries +4 bonus each time cast instant, sorcery. Not Tyrant, World Breaker, Karn, that finish game, destroy stuff including land. Not Molten, not stone rain, not wreak havok, not wrecking ball. Not Mimic Vat that spits out copies that destroy land, other stuff, when said copies come into play.

There literally no room for all the stuff, that would be needed to help Boom come out turn 2.

And even if there were room, it would mess up the consistency, with which land destruction comes out

Also if don't get spirit guide in opening hand, then what do later when you get them later. They are useless. They don't destroy land, stuff. They cost 3 cmc for 1 mana, way worse then Birds, Elves at 1 cmc

I guarantee you that if put in 2,3,4 spirit guides, that there will be times, when don't get them in opening hand, don't get the ramp, get STUCK with them in hand, thru later draw, where, when I would much rather have a 3 cmc stone rain, 3 cmc Molten, any 4 cmc land destruction card, Avalanche Rider, Slime, etc, an where the consistency will be messed up.

Because of that I guarantee you that the deck will work better without Boom, Spirit guide.

Now if it was possible to get Boom/bust out on turn 2 without birds, elves, spirit guides, without help, then Boom would belong in deck. But since that's not possible, it doesn't belong in deck.

Any way to destroy multiple lands at once with minimal risk to your own lands would be optimal for land destruction. I came up with a deck that can destroy multiple lands per turn, without a single land destruction card, using Liqumetal Coating (and Myr Landshaper). It may take time to set it up, but with artifact destruction being so cheap and Splinter exiling all with the same name, you can destroy multiple lands a turn. And with Liqumetal Coating, you can turn the destruction on any threat, if needed.

I am familiar with that build. I have done the liquid Metal Coating land destruction deck, but without Myr Landshaper, and with Hoard Smelter Dragon. I have also done a combination, where mixed variants of this deck, with Liquid Metal Coating, Hoard Smelter deck.

In it, the problems I always had, was consistency. If you run 4 liquid Metals, you drew too many. If you ran 2,3 you didn't get the early enough consistently enough. Also ran into the same problem as with Boom/Bust. In order to destroy land turn 2 with Liquid Metal Coating, you had to run Mox Opals, Memnites, infernal Plunge, Spirit Guide, HELP, etc. Or you had to run 3 Liquid Metal Coating, 3 Crush, and then play Liquid Metal Coating on turn 2, then turn land into artifact, then play Crush on turn 2 destroying the land that turned into a artifact on turn 2.

And you had to run like 10+ artifact destruction cards with Liquid Metal Coating, and about 10 to 13+ non artifact destruction cards, that land destruction cards like stone rain.

The problem was having to many parts, pieces, jumping thru so many hoops with Liquid Metal Coating to make it work on turn 2,3 consistently.

What ended up happening, is that often Liquid Metal Coating didn't come out, and then stuck with Crush, Ancient Grudge, Hoard Smelter, other artifact destruction, etc, in hand, with no way to destroy land, creatures, planeswalkers, enchantments, and only able to destroy artifacts.

The deck worked so awesome when it turned on. But it just wasn't consistent enough

The reason why this is a better build then Liquid Metal Coating, is that altho in both this deck, and Liquid Metal Coating, you need your 1 cmc Bird, Elf to come out turn 1, you don't have yo draw a liquid metal coating, or a specific land destruction card in this deck

All you have to do in this deck, is play a bird, or a elf turn 1, to draw, play any 1 of 8, 3 cmc land destruction cards on turn 2. And Even If You Dont Play A Turn 1 bird, elf, You Can Still Play Any 1 Of 8 , 3 Cmc Land Destruction Cards On Turn 3, And Even If You Play A bird, Elf On Turn 1, And Dont Play A Land Destruction Card On Turn 2, Then You Can Play Any 1 Of 17, 3 And 4 Cmc Land Destruction Cards On Turn 3, With No other card, liquid Metal Coating required, etc.

And there is plenty enough land destruction cards, creatures, etc, that also destroy creatures, artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers, lands, your choice which, an or all at the same time, which doesn't require a Liquid Metal Coating.

All of that is more consistent then Liquid Metal Coating. I have tried it both ways, and the non Liquid Metal Coating way is more consistent, tho when Liquid Metal Coating turns on, it's better. It just doesn't turn on as consistently.

CONSISTENCY is what is wanted, needed. The more parts, pieces, hoops that have to jump thru, combos, etc, needed, the more INCONSISTENCY there will be.

That is the problem with Liquid Metal Coating. To make it work, you have to tie up at least 3 deck slots for Liquid Metal, then tie up even more deck slots with mox opals, memnites, infernal plunges, spirit guides, crush, ancient grudge, 10 artifact destruction cards, that only work to destroy land if Liquid Metal is out.

That's a heck of a LOT of slots that you are tying up, so that instead of 19 to 27 land destruction cards, you only have 9 to 11 artifact destruction cards, and only 9 to 11 non artifact destruction cards, that destroy land, which I not enough to destroy land consistently on turns 2,3,4, to consistently destroy land period.

With that, you either get out a Liquid Metal coating, but don't draw a card with it yo destroy a land on turns 2,3,4 consustently, or you do draw the destruction cards, but don't draw Liquid Metal Coating consistently enough to destroy land on turns 2,3,4 consistently.

Rather then trying to run Liquid Metal Coating, tying up lots of slots with cards to help Liquid Metal Coating, your better off running at least 18 to 27 land destruction cards, so that you can consistently start destroying lands on turns 2,3,4, then keep it up, thru mid to late turns into the mid game, late game stages of the game.

With this deck, you consistently won't run out of land destruction steam, like you will with Liquid metal Coating, with this deck, you won't consistently have problems getting land destruction started, like you will with Liquid Metal Coating.

Yes there will be that rare game, where land destruction not come out turns 2,3,4, but that is rare. It wasn't as rare with Liquid Metal Coating.

Me, others tried extremely hard to make Liquid Metal Coating land destruction work a lot more consistently, and couldn't get liquid Metal Coating land destruction to work more consistently.

Believe me, if there was a way to get Liquid Metal Coating Land destruction to run more consistently, me, others would be running it more.

Hey Dedwards your suggestion about the Spirit Guides, altho still to many pieces, not enough deck slots, with, for Spirit Guide, Birds, Boom/Bust, fetch lands, and altho to many hoops to jump thru, not enough consistency, with, for all that, are still better ramp than the Llanowar Elves, so thanks for the suggestion.

The spirit guides as a replacement for the elves, do help the 3 cmc land destruction cards to come out on turns 1,2,3 somewhere between semi consistently to consistently, between some to most of the time, about somewhere between about 63% to about 93% of the time.

So while you suggesting the Spirit Guides were, was intended to go with your Boom/Bust suggestion, the spirit guides still work well without the Boom/bust in deck. Boom/Bust is still not a good fit in deck, just not enough room for 2,3 Boom/bust, and too many pieces, hoops to jump thru, fetch lands needed, etc, for Boom/bust

The rare fetch lands androgen Ravnica dual lands are your best bet. As for the quantities of each, I can't quite say.

Maybe people just don't like the land destruction playstyle. I know I wouldn't want to fight this deck, knowing that I won't be playing anything unless I was specifically running a low cost blue deck and sitting on counterspells the entire game to make sure I can play anything in my deck. I can't blame a crowd for not liking a deck that isn't their playstyle, or something they agree with.

As a Modern Format Tournament deck, it's a awesome deck, as you can build it for $63 to $127 in 3 to 5 months on a budget, and destroy all those Modern Format PRO, $2000 Grand Prix, PTQ decks. Unfortunately in Magic the gathering, the only way normal players have to combat all those PRO $1500 decks, equal the playing field, is with ROGUE, dick decks, like Land destruction, Mill, discard, Control, Infect, Werewolf, etc

In a casual, kitchen table game I would never play this deck, unless somebody was being a dick, playing a dick deck, playtesting it with a friend who didn't mind, etc.

You don't have to sell it to me, I already hit the Like button because, even though I may not particularly like the goal the deck, I feel it was constructed well and had a lot of thought put into it. My next question: how well does this fare against Jund or another control deck? How does it deal with Goyf and any threat they resolve in the first 3 turns? I am by no means discouraging design, I'm just asking because I don't see much creature kill or some other mitigation.

I don't think I was selling it to you. You said people may not like land destruction, because it's a dick deck(not your words, but what you meant, implied). So because of that I said that land destruction was, is a way to equal playing field against PRO $1500 decks, and that I don't play Land Destruction in casual play, unless someone is being a dick.

About Goyf:

1. they are only going to get 2 cmc Goyf out if they get perfect draw, combined with IF don't destroy a land until turn 3, an they have 2 lands before start land destroying, or IF land destruction stalls out mid, late game.

2. Though Goyf is awesome, he is overrated. Tho it starts as a 2/2 for 2 mana that gets bigger as more types of cards hit graveyard, it can be removed like any other creature.

3. Goyf IF dropped turn 1,2 is only going to be a 2/2, 3/3. Since only lands, instants, sorceries go graveyard, then Goyf only become 4/4, 5/5 at biggest. It will take 2 to 4 turns to do that, to go from 2/2 to 4/4, 5/5.

4. Can afford to be hit 3 to 6 times by Goyf before dead.

5. I have 3 Wreaking Balls (4 cmc, that destroy any creature, unless indestructible, hexproof, or destroy land), 2 Deathtouch Acidic Slimes.

6. I can mimic Vat Acidic Slime to always be able to block, kill Goyf or any other creature.

7. Can use Brutalizer Exarch to search library for a Acidic Slime to block kill Goyf, creature

8. Can use Charmbreaker Devils to get Wrecking Ball back from graveyard over and over each turn to destroy more creatures.

9. With 3 Wrecking Balls, 2 Acidic Slime, as 5 cards that deal with Goyf, creatures, it's very likely I will draw 1 of them anywhere between opening hand to late mid game to early late game.

10. IF, IF don't destroy land until turn 3, IF IF foe gets 2 land out, IF IF foe gets perfect draw, gets Goyf out turn 1,2, IF IF can't draw Wrecking Ball, Acidic Slime, then good game, game lost, onto next game. That's a lot of IF's. So that's only likely to happen 2 to 4% of the time, unless get unlucky a lot.

11. Goyf not likely to hit board, because destroy all foes land, and if it does hit board, Charmbreaker, or Acidic Slime, or Brutalizer Exarch, or Wrecking Ball will get out, already be out, deal with Goyf, any other creature

12. Can chump block Goyf with birds, spirit guides, Avalanche Riders, Brutalizer Exarch to buy turns, to get Charmbreaker, Exarch, Slime, Wrecking Ball.

So what normally do if Goyf, any other creature gets out is ignore it, destroy all their land first, so they don't get out any more creatures, chump block, or let creature hit for 2 to 5 damage. Then after destroy foes lands, then remove creature. Yeah might take 6 to 13 damage, but all their land gone, or all gone but 1 land, and their creature removed, and no way to put out another creature threat. And by the time, IF they get out 2,3 lands, another creature threat, game is practically over for them as they have probably taken 6 to 13 damage, have Slime, Exarch, Avalanche Riders, Spirit Guide, Charmbreaker Devils,1,2 birds, 4 to 6 land out can cast everything anything in my deck, that is already in hand, in graveyard, or that draw.

Also that's why Wrecking Ball is a key card in the deck, as both a land, creature remover, so that's why the suggestion to replace wrecking ball with Volcanic Upheaval, that only destroys land, not creatures, like Wrecking ball does both, was not a good suggestion, but still an appreciated comment, suggestion.

Also can sideboard, METABOARD in Blasphemous Act, More Removal, Spell Burst(counterspells), to deal with Goyf, goblin, tempered steel, horde, token, blitz, storm, win by turn 3,4 decks.

What Metaboard is: Its like a sideboard, except that instead of sideboarding in stuff in, out between games, in matches in tournaments, you sideboard, Metaboard stuff in and out of your deck between tournaments, based on META of tournaments.

So if Goyf, or any certain problematic card starts getting played a lot in tournaments, then can sideboard, Metaboard stuff in, out of deck, before you play the deck in the next tournament.

That's why it's good to have a 15 card METABOARD, in addition to your 15 card Sideboard for a tournament deck, in order to deal with stuff between games, tournaments

As far as Jund, they are not likely to get creatures out, because of land destruction. And can remove creatures with wrecking Ball, Acidic Slime, just like with Goyf. And if they are playing Jund Storm, blitz, win on, by turn 3,4, then can sideboard, Metaboard Blasphemous Act, Damnation, other board wipers, creature removal.

If they are playing Jund Midrange, control, then can sideboard, Metaboard in Spell Burst, Leyline of Lifeforce, Autumn's Veil. Also with no lands it's hard to counterspell land destruction cards, unless they are playing a legacy, vintage deck, because only force of wills, mental mistep or a 2 Cmc counterspell can stop cards in land destruction deck, and can't do so without islands, blue mana producing lands that will get destroyed.

So blue, black, red mana lands always get destroyed first to prevent counterspelling, removal, burn. They can have 1, 2 Green mana, unless they have Goyf.

If they are playing blue, black, or Blue, white, or blue, black, white, or blue, black, green, or blue, white, green, etc, control decks:

Destroy their land, they probably won't be able to counterspell, because most modern legal counterspells, are 2,3 cmc, which they probably won't have the 2,3 lands for.

Also destroy their blue, black mana lands first, as they can't counterspell, remove without blue, black mana. Let them have 1,2 white mana lands, as long as get rid of blue, black lands first, and as long as have no more then 1,2 of any, all lands, and only have 1,2 lands period.

Control will likely succeed in countering 1, maybe 2 spells over course of whole game. Control will probable destroy, bounce, remove 1, maybe 2 creatures during course of game. With 1 cmc Vapor Snags, and might get snapcaster into play 1, maybe 2 times.

But eventually land destruction will win, because control won't have the mana, land, to get out their big fatty, win con, and eventually land destruction will have the mana, and not get its stuff countered, removed, and so because of that land destruction will win eventually against pure non creature heavy control decks, that don't blitz.

The only control decks that are, can be a problem, are blue, black, white, blue, black, green, low cmc cards, creatures, etc, control, blitz combined decks, where they can get creatures out for 1,2 mana, and remove my creatures, and counterspell my stuff, and get a HORDE of 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, 1,2 cmc creatures out, all at almost the same time, combined, that can win by turns 3 to 6

Those kind of decks can be sideboarded, Metaboarded for.

There you go Arka's, 1 Goyf problem, fixed.

That would be so fun to destroy a $200 creature card, lol, to go along with destroying $100 planewalkers, and destroying $50 artifacts, destroying $33 enchantments, and destroying $75 to $150 lands. Ahhh the nice sound of rediculously EXPENSIVE cards going to the graveyard.

I didn't see much in the manner of Doom Blades (or something similar to just outright kill a creature) that didn't cost at least 4 mana. That's why I asked for an explanation. I also was not aware that you would be able to consistently have 3 mana available turn 2, via BoP or Simian. That's great that it works for you in drawing sample hands, best of luck. I have 1 more question now.

What purpose does Liquimetal Coating serve here? Is it to combo with dropping an Acidic afterwards, in case you need to destroy something not an artifact/enchantment/land?

That's the beauty of having 3,4 mana available turns 2,3,4 to be able to remove a artifact, creature, land, with cards like 3,4 of, 4 cmc Wrecking Ball, 4 of, 4 cmc, Wreak Havoc, on turns 2,3,4.

If could not do that, then would need 3,4 creature removal cards, and run less land destruction, which would make land destruction less consistent, run out if steam.

Liquimetal Coatings is in deck, for those semi rare, uncommon times when not have a wrecking ball, Acidic Slime in hand, out, so that you can turn a creature, planeswalker into a artifact, and then use 1 of 4 of Wreak Havoc, or 1 of 4 of Acidic Slime as artifact destroyers, to destroy the artifacted creature, planewalker, artifacted by Liquimetal Metal Coating.

With Liquimetal Coating, one has 24 ways to deal with creatures, planewalkers. 4 Slime(combine with liquimetal, 4 Wreak Havoc(combine with Liquimetal), 3,4 wrecking Ball, 3 Mirrorpool (copies Slime, Havoc, Wrecking Ball), 2 Charmbreakers (reuses wrecking ball, wreak Havoc, from graveyard), 2 Brutalizer Exarch (searches for Charmbreaker, Acidic Slime), 3 Liquimetal Coatings(combines with Slime, Havoc, to destroy creatures, planeswalkers), 3 Mimic Vats ( copies, puts out a Acidic Slime token once a turn)

Basically with Liquimetal Metal coatings in deck, only about 2 to 4% of the time won't be able to deal with creatures.

Whereas without Liquimetal Coating in deck, then about 12.5 to 25% of the time at most, might not be able to deal with creatures.

Now IF running Liquimetal Coating made it so that land destruction came out less consistently, then wouldn't run it.

In fact that's what the problem with it in the past. In the past, Liquimetal Coatings, took birds, elves, spirit guides, ancient grude, crush, to many pieces to make it work consistently, and got STUCK with semi dead cards in ancient grudge, crush, with no way to deal with anything but artifacts, if Liquimetal Coatings didn't come out.

But that was back then, before used Wreak Havoc, when only ran 3 Acidic Slime, maybe 2,3 wreak havoc.

A lot of us never thought of just using 4 of Acidic Slime, 4 of Wreak havoc, as 8 land, artifact destruction cards, to combo with 3 of liquimetal coatings to destroy creatures, planeswalkers, etc, if get combo out, and still be ok if not get combo out, because not get stuck with semi dead artifact destruction cards, because Slime, Wreak Havoc can destroy land, without Liquimetal Coatings coming out.

A lot of us didn't think about that, didn't think of running 3 Liquimetal coatings, 4 Acidic Slime, 4 Wreak Havoc, as a combo, without ancient grudge, crush.

I know I didn't think of that, until my deck here, now.

So running 3 Liquimetal coating, 4 Wreak havoc, 4 Acidic Slime in the deck doesn't mess with land destruction, and helps the deck not only destroy land, but destroy creatures, planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments, land.

Thanks for clearing that up. Makes a lot of sense. Have you started buying pieces of this to play in real life, or playtesting on Cockatrice or some other mtg client? Just curious to see what your findings are with playing it against other decks.

Sidenote: I read Mimic Vat again. Looks like you have to resolve and let die an Acidic Slime before you can actually imprint it. Do you have any problems reliably getting a Slime or another good creature imprinted, given the mana cost for those? As in, do you typically have enough time to get the mana available to pull that combo off effectively, reliably/consistently enough?

Reason cut Roiling terrain, is that need to be 60 cards, so that deck land destroys on turns 2 to 20 consistently, and needed 4 Molten Rain, and 4 Stone Rain, instead of 3 of each, in order to destroy land on, by turn 2 consistently. Also Roiling terrain, was only doing 1 point of damage per land in foe graveyard. That means on average, in a 10 turn game, Roiling Terrain only does about 4 to 7 damage by turn 10. Also 4 Molten Terrain can do 2 damage per nonbasic land of foe destroyed, and can be copied by mirrorpool, and be returned to hand from graveyard, by Charmbreaker, so because of that, 4 Molten Rain, in deck, can still do a lot of damage to a foe with a lot of nonbasic lands, by turn 10.

So deck is running awesomely, everything getting out in the sample hands that have been done on the sample hand thing here

I prefer 60 cards, 23 lands, as less mulliganning, easier to cast 5 cmc Acidic Slime, and 6 cmc's Brutalizer Exarch, Charmbreaker Devils, earlier, with 23 lands, vs only 22 lands. That said 22 lands works, as long as willing to Mulligan more.

I'm going to temporarily make the change, unmade the change, back and forth to playtest same hands, on the sample hand thing, to see which way is the most consistent.

After playtesting sample hands, 3 Exarch, 3 Charmbreaker came out too often, and when tried to split difference by running 2 Liquimetal, the 2 of them didn't come out enough.

So after tweaking, playtesting sample hands, that going with 3 liquimetal, 4 wrecking Ball, 3 Wreak havoc, 4 Molten Rain, 3 Stone Rain, 4 Slime, 3 Exarch, 2 Charmbreaker, worked well consistently.

Almost alway got 1 of 5, 3 Exarch, 2 Charmbreaker out per game on average.

When liquimetal came out, 7 of, in 3 Wreak havoc, 4 Acidic Slime worked with liquimetal.

And on the uncommon times liquimetal didn't come out, or didn't have Wreak havoc, Slime work with it, the 4 wrecking balls came out.

So almost always had either wrecking ball, an or liquimetal, an or wreak havoc, Acidic slime, and or Exarch, Charmbreaker come out consistently each sample hand game.

And with 7 3 cmc land destruction, and 7 4 cmc land destruction, I still consistently destroyed land on, by turn 2.

So the deck runs more smoothly, consistently now.

About the only problem still left, is drawing, getting 2 liquimetal coatings.

But I guess not all problems like that can be solved, because if run 2 of them they don't come out, and if don't run them at all, then the wrecking balls, Acidic Slimes, don't always come out, and when if that happens, don't have an answer, UNLESS Liquimetal Coatings Is In The deck, And Comes out, When If That happens.

So to make sure that have answers, Liquimetal Coatings need to stay in as a 3 of, even if it means that draw, get 2 of them once in a while.

This deck, or land destruction, or both? Thanks for the compliment, comment, like, +1. If your talking about this deck, I don't think it will make people cry. But if it will. That's not the goal. Just trying to make Modern Werewolves, human, Wolf confederated, coalition tribes, into a single tribe that's a tier 1,2, 1.5 tribe, deck, that can compete against, top tier 1 decks, probably finish in probably 9th place at best, and improve upon Pro Brian Kibbler's 16 place finish with a wolf deck on the pro circuit, which was the highest finish for a wolf deck, in standard, Modern. Only a Legacy format wolf deck finished as high as 1st to 4th place.

If your talking about my land destruction deck. Yeah it will make people cry, which is why I won't play it in casual, kitchen table, unless it's ok with people, and only to playtest it. That deck is reserved for playing against dick decks. Or players being a dick to other players. And for playing against those expensive $1350 modern format decks, to compete with them, send their $75 cards to the graveyard, and make them cry, complain, scoop, flip tables, get themselves kicked out of tourneys, stores, etc.

I made a EDH commander, land destruction deck with 30+ land destruction cards, and had the same policy. It was known as that deck. It was in a special deck box, in box of decks. And didn't play it until if someone was a jerk. Then out came the deck, destroyed the here's deck, and then back into the box, where it stayed for a long time, lol

Oops, got confused. Made the above comment, because I thought the above comment leocstr made was made on my other Werewolf deck. That caused me to make the comment I made above in response to leocstr's comment above.
In the comment above, I thought leocstr was saying my werewolf deck would make people cry. That's why I said deck(werewolf deck), wouldn't make people cry.

Yeah, but only like using the deck in competitive tournament play, against super EXPENSIVE deck, and or against, dick, jerk, players. I don't like to be a dick, play with a dick deck, like a Land Destruction deck, unless I have to, in order to Level the playing field, against the best decks.

Also since you think the deck is interesting, would you please + 1, like the deck, if you think it's worthy of that. Thanks if you do that.

For someone who enjoys punishing players that behave like dicks you behave a lot like that yourself. All that bragging and self-adulation, courting for likes and hate for anybody players that dare to play expensive cards or "dick decks" =>in a tournament<= makes yourself a kind of dick in my book. I was about to NOT comment and just leave it alone but at some point it was unbearable reading any more comments of yours on your own deck, how great it is and that we all should like it into the sky just because it's LD.

Here are some uncomfortable truths:

* LD isn't tier 1 and hardly tier 2 for a reason and your deck demonstrates perfectly why since it doesn't tackle any of those reasons

* Description, tags and actual content of the deck don't match at all

* Modern is a very FAST format while your current deck is very SLOW! A glimps at the mana curve says it all, but seriously, something like Incendiary Command in a serious modern deck that specifically wants to beat expensive deck's asses? Have you ever played in a bigger, serious tournament?

* The deck runs los of cute synergies and strategies that would be fun in casual, but in a tournament?! Those Mimic Vat shenanigans for example, before you get things like this rolling you have been rolled over yourself. And IF you want to run such a combo with Eternal Witness, you'd better run 4 copies each and focus on it, but as it is you threw random combo pieces into a LD deck, a deck that os notorious for having the least deck space!

* The mana base, oh god the mana base!
- You absolutely need at least one basic land of each land type to fetch for because Modern, much like Legacy and VIntage, is jam-packed with non-basic hate.
- I don't think you can afford a third colour AND Darksteel Citadel in this deck - see, if you fail to destroy the first land on turn 2 you have already lost. Darksteel Citadel and Boom/Bust is a cute combo but if you run with that, don't ruin your mana base any further with a third colour
- Especially not with BEFOUL which costs double-black, what were you thinking!? If you are insist on splashing a third colour it certainly shouldn't cost any double-coloured mana!

* There virtually is no creature removal. Any weenie deck will eat this for breakfast consistently. All you have is Befoul and Wrecking Ball, but at 4 mana each they will not be able to solve your problems in time and you won't be able to do anything else that turn. Moreover, if you waste your 4th turn (3rd if you have a BoP) killing a single creature instead of killing a land then you are on a losing track since the opponent can develop nicely and keep on pummeling you while you are busy trading one for one.

The thing about the mana base alone is a tip-off that you don't have much experience with the format. I am typing all of this especially because I know Dedward's deck he is currently working on which is also a LD deck or more precisely a mana denial deck aimed for Modern tournament play. And while I am not an expert in Modern I can see on first glance that his deck is superior to yours in about every aspect, he has answers to almost everything in a reasonable amount of time, a well rounded mana base, potential to completely shut down half of the meta as early as turn 2 and generally a much better game plan than this. And yet he doesn't advertise it as the format defining super-tech and is realistic about how it would perform.

Again, I wouldn't have said anything if it wasn't for all the boasting, self-praise and attention-whoring.

Puschkin, can you link the LD deck being made by Dedward? I'd very much like to see and appreciate =D

Dude, calm down. And try to read what I said.

You have creature removal, yes, but, as I said, it costs 4 or more and if you use it that late you can't destroy a land that turn. Trading 4 mana and a card against a single creature is like a Time Walk for the opponent. You should be busy destroying his lands in that turn.

And your mana base IS weak if you insist on both 3 colours with double-black as a splash AND Darksteel Citadel (which you are required to have on turn 2). You can yell all day that you have BoPs and such, it's a matter of experience that tells me this won't work under tournament conditions against real opponents that also do things like killing Birds, playing with Blood Moon etc. Drawing sample hands on Vault does NOT equal "playtesting".

And just because you have answers for everything doesn't mean you'll have them when you need them and especially that you'll have the time and mana to actually play them. I have played Land Destruction decks back then when you were most likely not even born yet, I know it's weaknesses inside out.

By the time I wrote this, your deck description WAS outdated and included lots of cards of your first version. The tags still don't match - "ramp"? Four BoPs is ramp now? Ramping means getting extra permanent mana sources like artifact mana or Myonwuli Acidmoss (like Dedward's deck has) but not one-shot boosters like Simian Spirit and 4 mana dorks that die if you look at them funny. Another tag is "green-black" while you also have the tag "Jund-red" - dude, "Jund" already means red-centered with green and black.

But meh, I know your type of persona, nothing I say will ever get through to you, so why even try? Take your BEST Tyr 1 Turn 1 Kil Lan Dek to the next GP qualifier or any other high caliber event and see for yourself how far this will get. My money is on Dedwards.

So, IF that is true you should know better than running such a manabase is all I am saying.
If you think otherwise, go out and play that deck as it is then instead of wasting time answering me! It's actually that easy!


BTW, Gaea's Blessing ruined mill, not Feldon's Cane. Feldon's Cane is from Antiquities aka the second expansion ever and nobody played mill decks back then. Milling with what, Millstone? Aka the card that coined the term "milling"? Do you know what else was in Antiquities? MILLSTONE!
From that story alone I take it that you either haven't played Magic back then or were like 10 years old at that time or sleepwalked through it. Your assessment of the Power Nine "A power 9 combo deck, had a certain 9 cards, where if you had those 9 cards, in your deck, you usually won on, by turns 1,2,3." also doesn't sound like someone that actually played back then, it sounds like someone picking up rumours and retelling urban legends. There isn't such a thing like a "power 9 combo deck" - the P9 were just in a lot of Type I decks, regardless of type, you could find them in Zoo for example. I OWN P9 cards, played with them myself, and let me assure you, they don't automatically win games.

Heck, you don't even get the abbreviations right when you say "until MTG, made Feldon's Cane" - MTG means "Magic: The gathering", hence, the name of the lovely game we play. The company is called Wizards of the Coast, abbreviated "WotC". This is of course only a technicality but it shows how much you care for details, how vague your memory is and much of what you say is most likely just hearsay.

I've only been playing for a little over five years, and even I can make a better deck than this Mr I've-been-playing-since-Ice-Age. I have a control deck that would eat this alive, and if I ever finish adjusting my legacy 8 rack then it'll beat the shit out of this deck too. Kinda hard to blow up my land if you don't have any cards in your hand

Of course a legacy, vintage deck would most likely beat most, to almost all modern format decks, including this deck. Fortunately this deck doesn't have to play against the rack, force of will, which are all NOT Modern format legal. Most good legacy, Vintage decks would beat the crap out of this deck.

This deck does just fine against control.

Turn 2, unless they went first, and have a 2 Cmc counterspell in hand, they are not likely to counter my Land destruction spell. Which means down to ZERO, 1 land, maybe 2 land for the rest of the game, and there are no 1 cmc force of will like counterspells in Modern Play that are legal. Mental Mistep, would tear my deck up as a 4 of in any deck, but they are BANNED in Modern Format play.

And even if do succeed countering Land destruction card turn 2, deck has 23 land destruction cards, ammo, to bait, switch, sneak stuff thru, into play that will beat control about 50% of the time in game 1, then game 2, I side in Autumn's Veil, Surgical Extraction Leyline of lifeforce, and then controls counterspells, removal spells won't do anything to the deck.

Because of that this deck beats modern format blue control decks. Remember this is not a aggro deck, where looking to buy time against. Go ahead, counterspell, remove creatures, all you want, because most creatures are in deck for their ETB enter the battlefield effects. All you will do us buy me more time, as well as as buy yourself more time. Then with that more time, I will eventually beat you with my win con, that will probably get out because you probably used counter, removal earlier, because if you dont, and save it for the win con, then your landless, and I have creatures to mash you earlier. Also plenty of bait, switch material I'm this deck. So if this deck is played smartly, it will beat Modern control decks, about 50 to 53% of the time.

You don't get the value of destroying a land turn 1 and turn 2, and then destroying a creature turn 3,4,5, after destroying 2,3,4 of their lands. No lands, No creatures, because destroyed their 2,3,4,5 lands, during turns 1,2,3,4,5, then destroying their 1,2 creatures turns 4, 5,6, equals this deck wins.

The only problem decks are AFFINITY, HORDE, SWARM, WEENIE, INFECT, WIN ON TURNS 2,3, ETC, DECKS. And my sideboard deals with those problem decks

What the heck are you talking!? Discard is NOT milling! And it did NOT have lots of discard either, just Mind Twist and Hypnotic Specter - the only black "mill" card of the day was Chains of Mephistopheles which nobody used because nobody understood it (and there was no card to go with it) and even Chains is outdated by Feldon's Cane because, as I said, Feldon's Cane is from Antiquities! How can the printing of Feldon's Cane ruin MILL if mill wasn't a thing until much, much later around Alliances when decks like Counterpost showed up?

What you are *probably* talking of was Feldon's Cane being reprinted in Chronicles and therefor availble to the unwashed masses, but why would it ruin anything? That card is horribly bad and has never been used in or against any serious deck. CounterPost used Soldevi Digger to have an endless deck and Keeper/The Franchise used Timetwister/Regrowth respectively 2 Gaea's Blessings to have an infinite deck. An neither of them worried about opponents running Canes ... all they do is prolonging the inevitable and deluting their deck.

"It was the only way for someone on a budget, with cheap cards to Level the playing field, compete against the EXPENSIVE as hell $3000 Big, Power 9, win on turns 1,2,3 semi consistently decks."
DISCARD is a way to fight powered decks, yes, Hymn to Tourach and later Duress, but not MILL and Feldon's Cane isn't part of this story at all! Furthermore you seem to be one of those that are blinded by the cost of some cards, especially since you are always naming P9. As someone that claims to be playing since 95 you should have learned some lessons more than a decade ago that money does not necessarily equal power. Morover you should know by now that there are many, many cards out there similarily powerful as the P9 that just happen to have a higher printrun and therefore are cheaper. From Balance to Sol Ring, Yawgmoth's Will to Tolarian Academy, Strip Mine to mentioned Hymn to Tourach there are TONS of cards equalling the power of the P9 while some of the P9 like Timetwister haven't been included in Vintage decks in ages. In fact, metioned cards can be obtained for prices similar or below that of Standard staples.

Your focus on P9 and your obsession about wanting to beat expensive decks is just another red flag for me that you are either talking aout things you have never experienced yourself OR that you haven't understood some fundamental things about this game. Please, for the sake of you own reputation, don't make any more statements and assumptions about the early years of Magic. Focus on what you are versed in: talking big about your Modern deck and then go out there and prove yourself - for yourself, not me! I don't mind how long it takes, do what you want, it's your deck. You won't take my advice anyway.

Oh and let's not forget the 2 Karplusan Forest, so it's 8 FETCH LANDS, and 9 DUAL LANDS for a 17 combined FETCH, DUAL lands, instead of 15. But hey what does that matter, 17 COMBINED FETCH AND DUAL LANDS IS SUPPOSEDLY HORRIBLY BAD, SUCKS, BAD, NOT, NOT, NOT

Well I have seen PUSCHIN be very puschy, and make puschy, pushy comments on others pages. I have seen him make very unconstructive comments, where he insults, belittles, offends, argues, etc, on others deck pages. Am surprised that has not been noticed by others and hasn't affected his reputation.

Also He Has Exhibited The Same Bad Behavior here. Also if you note earlier CONSTRUCTIVE comments by others, you will see a constructive discussion about constructive comments, and GASP, even me taking some of the suggestions.

Now why did I take some of their suggestions? Because they were consructive, made sense, non pushy.

Also when PUSCHYIN made his comments, he lost credibility with his LUDICROUS CLAIM about the mana base being sucky.

He did have 1 VALID point AMONGST HIS MANY INVALID POINTS that I acknowledged, agreed with.

You have misread the deck, deck description, and the comments. 1. I did not call him, or anyone else a idiot. 2. I have not called anyone who constructively criticized the deck a idiot. 3. Only 1,2 people, mainly PUSCHKIN (fitting name for his puschy behavior). 4. Said puschy PUSCHIN started off his comments in a UNCONSTRUCTIVE, INSULTING, OFFENSIVE BELITTLING WAY TOWARDS BOTH ME, THE DECK. 5. If your going to behave that way, expect PUSCHBACK. 6. I have read similar unconstructive, insulting, offensive, belittling, argumentive, etc, post, comments from him, where he behaves like a know it all, towards others. 7. He PUSCHIN made both some valid, invalid points. 8. His comments about the MANA BASE WERE ABSURD, LUDICROUS IN THE EXTREME. 7,8 of the right kind of FETCH LANDS, AND 5 to 8 of the right kind of dual lands, makes running, splashing a 3rd color, running a cards with 2 black, or whatever the splash color is, doable in competitive play. Now if I ran 4 BEFOUL, and 4 of another double black card, there probably might probably be a problem. But that wasn't the case. It was 2 BEFOUL, and playtesting sample hands, games proved, showed no problems getting the mana to cast the card. If there was a problem, I wouldn't play that card. 8. PUSCHIN only made the comment to to say, imply "Your deck sucks so bad, even your mana base sucks. That, or he really thinks that, and if he does, he has ZERO credibility, his reputation, be darned.

9. He did make a Valid point, the same as 1 of the points you made, that is the same Valid point. And it's a point I acknowledged, and explained how deal with the valid point. But even tho I have acknowledged, explained how deal with point, it doesn't get read, understood.

So again will go over this again. Here I will use CAPS SO IT'S GETS SEEN, READ THIS TIME.

YES THE DECK STRUGGLES AGAINST AFFINITY, WIN BY, ON TURNS 1,2,3,4 HORDE DECKS. MY SIDEBOARD, DEALS WITH THOSE DECKS. The deck does well against TRON, MIDRANGE, KIKI CHORD. IT DESTROYED A MODERN FORMAT WEREWOLF DECK. IT DESTROYED NAYA MIDRANGE.

Now here is where you misunderstand deck. It does not take 2 Spirit Guides. You think the deck doesn't start destroying land until turn 2 at the earliest, turn 3 normally, turn 4 at the latest. THAT IS WRONG.

TURN 1: chance to destroy a land about 17% to 24% to destroy a land.

How it is done:

A. Drop 1 of 3 Dark Citadel turn 1. Remove 1 of 4 Simian Spirit Guide from hand for 1 red. Tap Darksteel for 1 mana, cast 1 of 4 Boom, destroy land.

B. Drop any land turn 1. Remove 2 Spirit Guides, play either Molten Rain, or Stone Rain, destroy a land.

That happens on TURN 1, about 17 to 24% of time.

It is not a TURN 2 PLAY. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMOVE TO GUIDES TO DESTROY A LAND TURN 2, WHERE IF YOU FAIL TO REMOVE 2 SPIRIT GUIDES YOU HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL TURN 3 TO DESTROY LAND. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THAT.

TURN 2: Chance to destroy a land is about 83 to 85 to 87%, if fail to destroy a land on turn 1.

HOW IT IS DONE:

A. Turn 1 Bird. Turn 2: Molten Rain, Stone Rain, destroy a land.

B. Turn 1 drop land no bird, can either be any red mana source, or Darksteel. Turn 2 Darksteel, or Red mana land if not played turn 1. Turn 2 Boom destroy a land.

C. Turn 1 Bird. Turn 2 a FETCH LAND, Boom destroy a land.

D. Turn 1 no bird, turn 2 remove 2 Spirit Guides, Molten Rain, Stone Rain a land.

E. Turn 1 Bird, Turn 2 remove 1 spirit guide, Wrecking ball, or Befoul destroy a land on turn 2.

Now applying the above: Turn 1 Opponent plays land. Turn 1 since only 17 to 24% chance to destroy land, then probably either play 1 bird, or if no bird hold onto that 1 spirit guide in hand, or draw 1 spirit guide turn 2.

Turn 2: If go first 87% chance to destroy a land. Turn 2 for opponent,after his land got destroyed turn 2, he plays a land. If opponent goes first, opponent plays a 2nd land, then gets it destroyed turn 2, so has 1 land.

At this stage of the game, unless the opponent is playing Affinity, or a weenie, 1 cmc, horde, swarm deck, or gets lucky where can drop a Tarmogoyf turn 2 if they went first, and if lucky enough to play it then, unless that's the case opponent is behind, hurting, can't do anything. Even if they bolt the BIRD. Turn 3 will probably have 3 mana to Molten Rain, Stone Rain, or Boom destroy a 2nd land in a row, turn 3.

So after turn 3 they are likely at either no land, or 1 land, which again is not enough for foe to do anything, unless Affinity, horde, swarm, etc.

Turn 4: Now have either 4 land, or 1 Bird, plus 3 land, or 1 Spirit Guide, 3 land. In any case, usually have 4 mana turn 4. So destroy a 3rd land in a row, with 1 of 5, 4 cmc, either Wrecking Ball, or Befoul, or another Molten Rain, or Stone rain, or Acidic Slime, if have either a Bird, or a Spirit Guide.

So now opponent has no land, 1 land, can't do anything, unless affinity, swarm.

Turn 5 either Acidic Slime, or Goblin Dark-Dwellers, or Charmbreaker, or Eternal Witness, or Mimic Vat, or destroy a snuck out creature with Wrecking Ball, Befoul.

Now if they used removal, counters, on other earlier stuff, they likely do not have a way to stop you now, with only
0,1,2 land.

Yes, if they are a HORDE, SWARM DECK, AFFINITY, this won't happen, and this deck is toast.

Fortunately not everyone plays horde, swarm, AFFINITY, some play TRON, KIKI CHORD, AND OTHER DECKS THIS DECK DOES GREAT AGAINST.

AND EVEN WHEN THEY DO, THAT'S WHAT SIDEBOARDS ARE FOR.

10. WHAT I JUST DID I THE LAST 9 POINTS IS MAKE POINTS USING LOGIC, REASON, ETC, TO EXPLAIN, MAKE POINTS, DOING THAT IS NOT CALLING PEOPLE IDIOTS, IS NOT BEING ARGUMENTATIVE, IS NOT BEING A KNOW IT ALL, ETC.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO SAY I AM WORDY, TO LONG IN MY COMMENTS, POINTS, LOGIC, ETC, THEN GUILTY OF BEING WORDY, TO LONG IN MY COMMENTS.

ALSO ALL PURE LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS, WHETHER MINE, YOURS ARE GUILTY AS CHARGED BY YOU OF THAT THEY DONT DO WELL AGAINST HORDE, SWARM, AFFINITY.

THE ONLY WAY A MODERN FORMAT LAND DESTRUCTION DECK IS GOING TO TOP 8 CONSISTENTLY, LIME YOU SAY YOU DO, IS IF IT'S NOT A PURE LAND DESTRUCTION DECK, AND ONLY HAS A COUPLE, FEW, SOME LAND DESTRUCTION CARDS, TO HELP THEIR DECK.

ALSO I NEVER SAID THAT I SUPPOSEDLY EXPECT TO TOP 8 ON THE PRO TOUR. YOU AND OTHERS ARE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, THAT I DID NOT SAY.

WHAT I DID SAY IS THIS: THAT THE GOAL, PURPOSE, EXPECTATION OF THIS DECK IS TO BE A SPOILER DECK THAT LEVELS, EQUALS THE PLAYING FIELD AGAINST EXPENSIVE $1350 DECKS, AND FINISHES IN ABOUT 7TH TO 14TH PLACE IN COMPETITIVE MODERN FORMAT TOURNAMENTS, AND FOR THE DECK TO BE A TIER 1 5 DECK, BETWEEN TIERS 1 AND 2 AT THE BEST. AND THAT AMONGST PURE 100% PURE, DEDICATED, FOCUSED, ETC, LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS, THIS DECK IS 1 OF THE BETTER, BEST OF THOSE KIND OF DECKS.

THAT'S REASOBABLE, SINCE THE DECK DOES CONSISTENTLY DESTROY LAND ON, BY TURN 2, WHAT WITH 8 MANA DORKS, AND 23 LAND DESTRUCTION CARDS.

AND SINCE THE DECK HAS 10 CARDS THAT DESTROY CREATURES TURNS 4,5,6,7, AND LOTS OF WAYS TO EITHER DRAW, SEARCH FOR, REUSE FROM GRAVEYARD, SHUFFLE THEM BACK INTO LIBRARY, ETC.

AND SINCE THE DECK HAS A GREAT SIDEBOARD AGAINST PROBLEM DECKS.

MAYBE IF YOU TOOK THE ACTUAL TIME TO READ, STUDY, BREAKDOWN THE DECK, DECK DESCRIPTION, THEN PLAYTEST THE DECK, YOU WOULD GET WHY THE DECK ISN'T AS BAD AS YOU THINK, AND WHY THE DECK IS A GOOD DECK.

OR MAYBE IF YOU ACTUALLY USED LOGIC TO MAKE YOUR POINT, INSTEAD OF YOUR DECK SUCKS BECAUSE IT WONT DO WELL AGAINST AFFINITY, ETC, AND BECAUSE IT'S SUPPOSEDLY SLOE, ETC.

MEANWHILE, YOU GUYS HAVE NOT REBUTTLED ANY OF MY POINTS WITH LOGIC.

I HAVE USED LOGIC, EXPLAINED WHY, HOW THE DECK, CONSISTENTLY DESTROYS LANDS TURNS 1,2,3, AND HOW IT USES ITS 10 DIFFERENT WAYS TO DESTROY CREATURES CONSISTENTLY TURNS 4,5,6,7.

NEITHER YOU, NOR PUSCH, has REFUTED THOSE POINTS WITH LOGIC

EITHER PROVE. REFUTE IT WITH LOGIC, ETC, LIKE I HAVE DONE.

AND ME, AND OR OTHERS PAYING $1000 TO MAKE THE DECK, THEN TRAVEL 300 TO 900 MILES, PAY $35 to $50 for gas, or $100 to $200 for bus, or $650 by plane, then $300 to $500 just for hotels for 1,2,3,4 days, nights, then the $50 to $200 entry fee into the PRO TOUR TOURNEY, IS NOT REALISTIC.

IT'S NOT NECESSARY TO DO THAT TO EITHER PROVE, DISPROVE DECK.

LOGIC, REASON, PLAYTESTING EITHER IS, OR SHOULD BE ENOUGH

I did read and did understand it, please don't assume I'm an ignorant child that doesn't know how to read.

You have very few finishers. You're trying to win the game with 5-6 mana 4/4's and only 2 of them at that. Mimic vat is cool and all but is easily answered by Kolaghan's Command or Abrupt Decay, two very heavily played cards. 90 percent of your creature base are answered by lightning bolt. The most played removal spell in modern. The other heavily played removal spells include terminate, go for the throat, lightning helix, and path to exile.

The vast majority of decks in modern only need 2-3 mana to function, so yes, resource denial is a real plan and personally my favorite plan. I play it in every format I can. Death and Taxes in legacy, Stone Rain dot deck in modern and hatebears in commander.

The stone rain plan is fun and does well against control, but control is bad in modern so very few people play it.

Logic, reason and playtesting are the reasons I am saying your deck would not work well against actual tier 1 decks.

I know the breakdown of the deck, I did read it and I read the cards in your deck that I didn't know. Your sideboard has 4 cards that would actually be good against aggro and only 2 copies of 1 card that is good against infect.

Yes, I am using aggro as an example because over half of the tier 1 decks are aggro and I'm using tier 1 decks as an example because you want this deck to be tier 1.

As I've said, I've played the deck competitively for a while and against players that are incredibly competent. So I can say from plenty of experience that this deck does not do well in a competitive environment. If your only goal is to take it to a FNM I've already said the deck looks fine for doing just that.

You seem to be focused on the price of decks, so let me just say that you can build an expensive deck and have it still be bad. All it takes are a few scalding tarns and some snapcaster mages. Most people that have the expensive cards have simply been playing a while and got them when they were cheap.

Your words real quick; "The deck does well against TRON, MIDRANGE, KIKI CHORD. IT DESTROYED A MODERN FORMAT WEREWOLF DECK. IT DESTROYED NAYA MIDRANGE."
Those are not tier 1 decks. Tron, and Kiki Chord are tier 1.5, the other decks were built for fun. Again, it is very easy to have a deck be expensive and still be bad, all it takes are a couple of zendikar fetches and a goyf or 2.

This deck is not new, it has been tried before and it lacks something to push into a top tier. Other versions are close.

You should really consider changing your list to just R/G and focus on Stone Rain, Molten Rain and Boom//Bust and flashing them back with Goblin Dark-Dwellers.

For infect sideboard Sudden Shock is king, Melira, Sylvok Outcast is pretty good too.

Thragusk is super good against Jund and a lot of other things. Pretty good against aggro too since it gains you life and eats a removal spell and probably a creature.

1. The deck doesn't need a lot of finishers. Also if you add a lot of finishers, then instead of having 23 land destruction cards, you would only have about 13 to 17 land destruction cards. 13 to 17 land destruction cards is not enough, and will consistently LOSE. Every time I and others I know have used only 13 to 17 land destruction cards, that loses. Also 1 of the finishers can be pumped up to 8/4, 12/4, 16/4. And it's not just those 2 finishers, 2 Brutalizer Exarch, and 2 Primal Command, make getting the finisher out easily on, by turns 4,5,6,7,8 consistently. And if they Lightning Axe, Goblin Grenade, etc, it, Eternal Witness can, will get it back. And they are likely to have used their 3 to 6 to 9 1 cmc removal on Acidic Slime, Bird, Eternal Witness, etc, so will have less removal for finishers. Also in a land destruction, resource denial, destruction deck, you only need 1,2,3 finishers, as long as have ways to fetch them, and ways to get them back, if they are destroyed. The only thing that deck worries about, that wrecks it's graveyard Shenanigans is Path to Exile.

2. Again the purpose of the deck is to be a SPOILER, Level the playing field, equal the playing field, TIER 1.5 ONE POINT FIVE, BETWEEN TIERS 1 AND 2, AT THE BEST in COMPETITIVE MODERN FORMAT PLAY. Competitive does not have to mean PRO TOUR, Competitive play is any tournament that has good competitive players with tier 1, tier 1.5, tier 2 decks. As an example, my local FNM is the toughest in the country, with 1/5 to 1/2 of the players ranked in the top 25 to 250 players in the city, state, region, etc, where they play regularly in Grand Prix, PTQ's. 1 of the players, not me, has even played in 1 of the PRO TOUR events, and always finishes 1 to 4 place at the FNM. And almost all the players in that FNM use tier 1, tier 1.5, tier 2 decks. That makes that particular FNM a COMPETITIVE tournament, despite most FNM's not being competitive. Also FNM is a STANDARD FORMAT tournament, not a Modern Format Tournament.

3. Since this deck makes it so that opponent only has 0,1,2 land, opponents won't be able to get threats out, unless they are playing a HORDE, SWARM, WIN ON TURNS 1,2,3, type deck, which is BOARD WIPED BY 2 of INCENDIARY COMMAND, on, by turn 3,4, and by SIDEBOARD.

And 1 of the 10 cards that deal with creatures, will remove a creature turns 3,4,5,6,7. And since they won't get out threats, or will have me destroy their threats, then big deal if they destroy my stuff. Most of my creatures are ETB creatures. A. Birds are only used to turns 2,3 to ramp stuff, by, on, after turns 3,4,5 let them destroy the bird for all I care. It served it's purpose already. B. Spirit Guides are designed to remove from hand, game, for ramp, so they are usually not destroyed, casted. C. Once Eternal Witness hits the board, it fetches something back from graveyard, so it let them destroy it, it served it's purpose. D. If Acidic Slime gets destroyed, it served it's purpose of destroying something, probably a land, by entering into play, and keeping any threats at bay for 1,2 turns, so after that let them destroy it for all I care. E. Brutalizer Exarch, by entering into play, and either removing something, or searching for something, has served it's purpose, let them destroy it. F. The only creatures I do CARE about, DO NOT want to see get destroyed are Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Charmbreaker Devils, but even if them, or anything else gets destroyed, put into graveyard, I can fetch it back, destroy a land, keep up the destroying their stuff pressure, then put the destroyed thing back into play. Worst case scenario, they keep on destroying my stuff,until like turn 30, after they have destroyed my stuff 20 times, they finally run out of 25 kill spells, and I finish them off.

4. No Land destruction decks are not new. I am well aware of that. Also aware that Land destruction decks are not tier 1. I didn't say Tier 1, I said tier ONE POINT FIVE BETWEEN TIER ONE AND TIER TWO. And all PURE land destruction decks(not decks with only just 3 to 6 land destruction cards) will have the same similar problems of dealing with horde, swarm, weenie, infect, AFFINITY, win on, by turn 1,2,3 decks. All PURE Land destruction decks NEED a SIDEBOARD, and will lose game 1 against problem decks, then sideboard, then win games 2,3. The reason why this PURE LAND DESTRUCTION DECK, is better then most, almost all other pure land destruction builds, is that most, almost all pure land destruction decks, DO NOT destroy lands turn 1, turn 2. Most don't destroy land until turn 3 at fastest, turn 4 normally, turn 5 at the slowest. Those decks are the FUN, casual, Kitchen Table decks. Also those lesser land destruction decks don't have ways to remove creatures, and they don't put in Win Con, FINISHER into deck, that's why they are lesser, casual, fun, kitchen table type decks. My PURE land destruction deck Destroys Land turns 1,2, turn 3 at the slowest, instead of like other decks destroying lands turns 3 4,5. My deck deals with creatures turns 3,4,5,6, unlike other decks that dont. My deck has a finisher, win con, unlike those that dont. My deck has ways to FETCH, get what want, need, others dont. Mine can reuse, get stuff back from graveyard, others dont.

Because my deck destroys lands on turn 1 and turn 2, and deals with creatures, and has a win con, and can fetch stuff, and get stuff back, and can keep on pressuring, controlling, destroying their land from turn 1 to turn 19, that makes this deck better then some fun, casual, kitchen table deck, and a tier 1.5 to tier 2 semi competitive, level the playing field, spoiler type of deck.

5. Running a Stone Rain deck, without black with only Goblin Dark-Dwellers is less effective then this deck. Yeah the trade off is can destroy land even more consistently by 3 to 9% percentage points better, more of the time on turns 1,2,3, but by doing that you are losing the ability to deal with creatures. Because without Wrecking Ball, Befoul, then only have Acidic Slime to deal with creatures, unless you run a LIQUID METAL COATINGS LAND DESTRUCTION DECK, but the problem with that is that deck takes to many parts, pieces. You have to have Myr Land Shaper, Ancient Stirrings, 6,7 Mana Dorks combined with Liquid Metal Coatings to semi consistently destroy a land turns 1,2 with Liquid Metal Coatings. And that means only 15 to about 20 artifact destruction cards. Which means sometimes you get out Liquimetal, but no artifact removal, or get lots of Artifact removal, but no liquimetal, no Landshaper, so stuck with Artifact removal that cant destroy lands, creatures..

But going back to your comment of Molten Rain, Stone Rain, Boom, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, like I said, no way to deal with creatures, if take out Incendiary Command, Wrecking Ball, Befoul. Beast Within could be used, but that replaces a creature with another 3/3 creature. Could use Wild Swing, but that is way too Random. So unless there is some other card that destroys a land, or a creature like wrecking ball, that is 2,3,4 cmc, that is not black, that is Modern Legal, that doesnt have a bad side effect, like giving a opponent a 3/3, etc, that I have not heard of, then if take Wrecking Ball, Befoul, Incendiary Command out, then there would be a most nothing in deck, that could be in, added to deck, that would destroy a land, an or destroy a creature, that 2,3,4 cmc, that not black. And before anybody says BOLT, BOLT ONLY DESTROYS A CREATURE, IT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE OPTION OF EITHER DESTROYING A LAND, OR DESTROYING A CREATURE. And THERE IS NO ROOM in deck for cards that are not versatile, don't give you the option, choice of either destroying a land,an or creature. That's because in a PURE land destruction deck, that notorious for limited space, slots, and because MUST HAVE 20, 21,22,23,24 land destruction cards, then the only way Gina make it work is using cards like wrecking Ball that destroys both a land, creature. If I put in BOLT, would have to cut 2,3,4 land destruction cards, or Birds, Spirit Guides, or Eternal Witness, or VAT, or Exarch, or Goblin, or Charmbreaker, etc, which is, would be unacceptable, wouldn't work, would cause deck not to work. There is no room for BOLT or any other creature removal card that does not also destroy a land.

The next problem with your suggestion, is Goblin Dark-Dwellers, IF was going to take out PRIMAL COMMAND, INCENDIARY COMMAND, WRECKING BALL, BEFOUL, THEN running 2,3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers, might be ok. The problem is taking out those CAPS cards would make the deck worse, not better. Also the problem with Goblin Dark-Dwellers is A. If over used, removes too many targets for CHARMBREAKER. B. It only reuses the card once before Exiling it, instead of reusing the card 3,4,5, etc, times like with CHARMBREAKER. C. Does not pump up like CHARMBREAKER. So usually what happens with Goblin Dark-Dwellers,is that it comes into play, Reuses a land destruction card, destroys a land, either deals no damage, 4 to 8 damage depending on how fast they remove it. CHARMBREAKER on the other hand can swing for game by casting 1,2 spells, doing 8 to 12 to 16 damage in 1, turns. That's something that Goblin Dark-Dwellers won't do. Goblin, and Charmbreaker work really well together, and as such both Goblin, Charmbreaker both should be in the deck both.

6. Your Main Deck, sideboard suggestions: These are the most appreciated, constructive parts of your comments.

A. Melira Sylvok, and sudden Shock, is a good suggestion, problem is finding room in sideboard. If sudden shock is better than Anger of Gods, Slagstorm, it will go in the sideboard, and take those slots.

B. Thragtusk would only go in deck if it was a finisher, to replace Goblin, Charmbreaker, which it is not. If replaced Brutalizer Exarch then would have 2 less cards to remove land, and 2 less cards to search, tutor, fetch a creature, and would only have 2 PRIMAL Command, to search up creatures. And if I replace Primal Command With Thragtusk, then 2 less land removal cards, 2 less search for creatures cards. Yes Thragtusk gives you 5 life, hits for 5, waste a removal card, produces a 3/3 if removed. Thing is tho, PRIMAL COMMAND already gives me 7 life, and I can get 7 life over and over with Eternal Witness, and Charmbreaker. I don't think some of you get just how awesome Primal Command is. So 5 more life, is nothing compared to the 7 to 14 life of Primal Command, depending on how many times you copy it, Reuse it. Another problem with Thragtusk is its 5 cmc, and that it does not do anything to either destroy a land, or reuse land destruction cards, or find, get anything that helps destroy stuff in future. Also if added Thragtusk, would have too many 5 cmc cards in deck, and would have to remove Primal Command, Acidic Slime, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Brutalizer Exarch, Charmbreaker, to make room for Thragtusk, and all those cards are better fits for, in this deck then thragtusk. Thragtusk just isn't as good as a fit in a land destruction deck with limited space,slots, as it's a better fit in other decks. Also thragtusk is not good vs speed, agro decks, as it doesn't come out until turns 3,4,5, unless get super lucky and drop him turn 2 which is theoretically possible, but ultimately extremely rare almost never ever happens. Also not going to replace VAT with 2 Thragtusk. I will look for a way to squeeze in 2 Thragtusk, because he is good, just don't think there is room for him in the deck.

One more final comment before I unsuscribe;
You cannot sit there and say this is THE best version if you don't get out there and play against the best. Play against the likes of Sam Black, Gerard Fabiano or Reid Duke.
Sitting here and saying the deck your playing is the best land destruction deck ever because you take to fnm and do relatively well would be like me saying that my standard enchantment deck is the best deck because I went into the top 8 of my local fnm a few times and never once playing against someone almost if not as skilled as Brad Nelson.

Yes, going to a Grand Prix or a Pro Tour is expensive, so is every hobby, but to actively sit on a website and say your deck is the best tier 1/1.5/2 or whatever deck without actually going out and getting results from playing against truly skilled people is just ridiculous. Claiming to be the best means you have to play against the best and prove that it is exactly as you say.

Have fun, I hope the veins in your forehead don't explode from reading this.

He doesn't have to go to a GP. It would be enough to participate in a QUALIFIER.
The thing is, in all of his longwinded posts is rattling down the choices he has and how many fecthlands etc. but this is all theory. When you actually play =>against high caliber decks and players<= you'll figure out that a lot of your theories don't add up. He might have 7 or so creature kill spells, but the thing is, they all cost 4+ mana and trade 1-for-1. You can get away with this in your local card shop, read, a casual environment and yes, then a deck like this will wreak havoc, but that's not how it will work out in the real worlds of serious tournaments! By the time he can cast a Wrecking Ball there will be more than one creature out and if he wastes his turn killing the biggest one, then the opponent will have increased his landcount and can easily replace the killed creature, all while the LD-deck eats more damage! That'll snowball into a loss at no time. Which has always been the problem of LD decks.

I said from the getgo in my initial post that kicked off this shitstorm: The deck is fine for casual.
More importantly, and I repeated this in the end of my post: It's ALL about presentation. I wrote because of all the bragging, false advertisement and unrealistic claims! See, in his defensive posts, Asturonethorius now claims he only wants to beat tier 1.5 but the title of the deck STILL says "tyr 1", "best" and "turn1". Yes, there is a question mark, but that's at least 3 offenses in the book of clickbaity titles. Also, the description still reads:
"Goal, purpose of deck, is to Level playing field, compete vs, send EXPENSIVE cards to graveyard, of EXPENSIVE $1350 Modern, Pro, tier 1 decks." Tier 1! It's still in the description you tool!

Then his introduction:
"Turn 1, drop a land, tap land for mana, remove 2 spirit guides from hand, for 2 red mana, play either Molten Rain, or [[Boom/Bust]], or Stone Rain on turn 1.
...
The goal is to start destroying, removing opponents land on turns 1,2,3. Continue do that until Charmbreaker hits field, swing 1,2 times for game, while dealing with the extremely rare creature, planeswalker threats."
So, the gameplan is to use 2 or even 3 cards to kill a single land on turn 1/2 and "continue to do so" until he draws the single Charmbreaker he has in the deck ... aha. How are you supposed to keep up that pressure when you are ar card disadvantage from the start? How do you deal with the small threats any deck will still be able to squeeze in? Something as simple as a Cursecatcher from a random Fish deck will tear this apart.

See, it's THIS kind of bragging:
"Maybe 1 of the best, if not Maybe 1 of the best, if not Maybe the best, PURE, 100%, DEDICATED, FOCUSED, TIER 1.5 TURN 1, 1.5, 2, MODERN FORMAT, LAND DESTRUCTION DECK."
just BEGS to get negative responses, *especially* since Asturonethorius said:
"As a Modern Format Tournament deck, it's a awesome deck, as you can build it for $63 to $127 in 3 to 5 months on a budget, and destroy all those Modern Format PRO, $2000 Grand Prix, PTQ decks. Unfortunately in Magic the gathering, the only way normal players have to combat all those PRO $1500 decks, equal the playing field, is with ROGUE, dick decks, like Land destruction, Mill, discard, Control, Infect, Werewolf, etc
In a casual, kitchen table game I would never play this deck, unless somebody was being a dick, playing a dick deck, playtesting it with a friend who didn't mind, etc."
So, he is on a mission to fight people that behave like dicks. My original post was mainly made to point out that you, sir, also behave like a dick. It might not have occured to you as of yet, this is why I pointed that out. It's one of the reasons why people like Dedwards stopped commenting and others didn't even bother to join the discussion. I was trying to help, actually.

"You pushed the Goku button."
"I don't see how thats a pro-"
*gets gut checked*
"You really shouldn't have done that"

That's what the above post is

Here's some more to chew on. Just ran across this on my Facebook feed. It's the top ten modern decks currently

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13469&writer=Seth+Manfield&articledate=8-24-2016&m_source=tcg-fb-post&utm_medium=tcg-fb-post&utm_content=magic&utm_campaign=tcg-fb-post-magic

I just want someone windmill slam a turn 2 blood moon against this deck.

Putting this here, because no place to reply above. There is nothing wrong with CONSTRUCTIVELY DISAGREEING OUSCHIN, But you don't do that. It's not enough for you to say in a constructive way, that you think so an so is bragging, and that their deck is not as good as it is, as think should be in theory. It's not enough for you to say the problem with your deck, is a,b,c, for reasons X,Y,Z. No you have to insult, berate, belittle, name call, etc, and double down in that, if the person constructively disagrees, explains logic, etc, and if the person pushes back. You are very PUSHY, and have seen you behave that way in many of your comments on other people's decks. And then you wrongly charge me, others of the same behavior. I have not called you a idiot. About the worst I have said to you is that you are PUSHY, and that's the truth.

Next I what I said either is logically true, an or should be true in theory. The deck is in theory, in logic a tier ONE POINT FIVE BETWEEN TIER 1, AND TIER 2, and is a SPOILER deck, that level the playing field, semi competitive, etc. h e deck COMPARED TO MANY OTHER LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS, is in theory, logically 1 of the better, best LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS, BETTER THEN LOTS, MOST PURE 100 PERCENT LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS.

I explained why to you, xera. The reason why is MOST land destruction decks do not start destroying land until turns 3,4,5,6, and do not have ways to deal with creatures, and don't have win cons. There are a lot of CRAP land destruction decks out there,and that's why they are casual, kitchen table decks. This land destruction deck is BETTER THAN ALL THOSE LOTS OF CRAP LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS.

The reason why is this land destruction deck consistently destroys lands turns 1,2,3. And destroys creatures turns 4,5,6,7. Yes the deck has lots of pieces in order to do that. If the deck only had 1,2 of the required pieces, then you would be right that it wouldn't happen consistently. The deck has 8 mana dorks to help ramp the land destruction cards TWENTY THREE OF THEM, MOST OF THEM AT 3,4 CMC, NOT 4,5,6 CMC LIKE YOU ERRANTLY SAY. I that doesn't work the there are 4 BOOM, AND ELEVEN, 11 Broken into 8 FETCH LANDS, AND 3 DARKSTEEL CITADEL THAT WILL DESTROY LAND TURNS 1,2,3.

YES THAT'S A LOT OF REQUIRED PIECES, WHICH NORMALLY WOULD NOT BE GOOD IF ONLY HAD 1,2,3 OF LOTS OF PIECES. BUT THERE ARE 8 DORKS, 23 LAND DESTRUCTION CARDS, 4 BOOM, 8 FETCH LANDS, 3 DARKSTEEL LANDS, ALL ADDED TOGETHER THAT'S 42, FORTY TWO CARDS that HELP DESTROY LAND CONSISTENTLY on turns 1,2,3. Those 42 cards, an or 8 Mana Dorks, an or 4 BOOM, an or 8 FETCH LAND, and or 3 Darksteel, an or 23 land destruction cards, WILL, DO COME OUT CONSISTENTLY IN 100 TO 1000 SAMPLE HANDS, TURNS 1,2,3 TO DESTROY LANDS TURNS 1,2,3.

And it's not only 7 cards that deal with creatures, it's TEN CARDS THAT DEAL WITH CREATURES. 4 wrecking ball, 2 Befoul, 2 Acidic Slime, 2 Incendiary Command. 3,4,5 of those on average are going to be drawn per game. And it's not just those cards. There are ways to FETCH, DRAW, REUSE THOSE CARDS FROM GRAVEYARD.

Also since destroy opponents land turns 1,2,3, then opponent will only have ZERO, ONE, 2 LAND. That means that opponent will only have 1 or 2, 3 creatures at most, that are 1/1, 2/2. The game plan to deal with those, is too temporarily ignore them finish destroying most, almost all, all their land, then during a turn where they don't drop a land during the turn, destroy a creature turn 4,5,6,7, then destroy another land that drops, then either draw, fetch, reuse, get another creature removal card, to destroy another creature, then destroy another land, alternating back and forth between destroying land, creatures, only destroying creatures during those turns that opponent did not drop a land into play after destroying land. Yes that means that the creatures will knock you down to 17 life to 13 life, to 10 life, to 7 life, to 5 life, before you have totally destroyed their land till they have only 0 ZERO, 1, ONE LAND, and 0, ZERO, 1, ONE creature, until you use Primal command, or thragtusk to get more life, and until you get either thragtusk, an or Goblin Dark-Dwellers or Brutalizer Exarch, or Charmbreaker, or Incendiary Command, or Primal Command to get out finisher.

You keep on only seeing Goblin Dark-Dwellers or only 1 Charmbreaker and Errantly think those aren't going to come out, and if so, it will be too late, or after its needed, or LUCK, etc.

The thing your overlooking is 1 of each of the finishers is a 3 THREE OF A CARD CATEGORY CALLED FINISHER. and on average 1 or 2 of them will come out mid to late game on average without help.

Now you throw in 6, SIX ways to help the finishers get into play, 2 INCENDIARY COMMAND TO DRAW LOTS OF CARDS, 2 PRIMAL COMMANDS TO FETCH THE CARDS, 2 BRUTALIZER EXARCH TO FETCH THE FINISHERS. EXTREMELY RARE IS THE GAME, SAMPLE HAND, WHERE NONE OF THE FINISHERS COME OUT.

But then you Errantly think ok fine get them out, but they will b destroyed.

That's what Vat is for, to deal with, discourage that. Charmbreaker can swing for game in 1,2 turns, before they get a chance to remove, Thragtusk is anti removal, Goblin Dark-Dwellers will hit once before being destroyed.

Then there is Eternal Witness to fetch them back, and can shuffle them into library with PRIMAL COMMAND. To refetch, redraw, replay them later, and destroy more lands, creatures, etc.

The only problems for deck, is horde, swarm, weenie, Affinity, infect, win on turns 2,3 decks. But sideboard deals with those decks with BOARD WIPE, MELIRA, TRINISPHERE,ETC. This deck can handle those sideboard cards, problem decks, for this deck, can't handle those sideboard cards.

According to logical reasonable theory, concepts etc, sample hands, games, etc against Tron, Kiki Chord, Naya Midrange, Midrange, semi agro, werewolf like decks, etc, the deck has worked, will work, should work, and against the problem decks, the SIDEBOARD WILL, WOULD, SHOULD deal with problem decks.

Now it's obvious, your not going to get it, and will disagree, which is ok, and will continue to be a unconstructive, PUSHY, HECKLER, so no point in continuing HECKLERS GO TAKE YOUR HECKLING SOMEWHERE ELSE, or at the very least, STOP your HECKLING, behave yourself, make constructive comments, etc. And your comments have not been constructive.

I know, right?

They make my brain hurt trying to grasp some of the things said

Sorry all, I am guilty as charged when it comes to me being wordy, long winded, making long comments. But the long comments, or shorter comments with many points is causing my comments to be longer, because I am addressing each of their points in my comments. That makes my comments longer. If they made 1 point per comment, then my comments wouldn't be as long. Also could just make multiple comments addressing 1 point each, that address points made in earlier comments. But that would increase the volume of comments, and also if do that then get a bunch of responses before get a chance to finish addressing points made to earlier comments. That's another reason why I make a longer comment addressing many points made in earlier comments, instead of making shorter comments.

Decided to add Melira Sylvok to the Sideboard. Thanks for the suggestion. Did not use Sudden Shock As Slagstorm is Better. Added 1 more Wrecking Ball to go to 61 cards, 23 lands, a 37.5% land, mana ratio, and to go to 11, ELEVEN ways to deal with creatures, instead of 10. In playtesting sample hands, the deck still destroys lands consistently by, on turns 1,2,3, and gets out creature removal more often.

Slagstorm is only better in that it hits multiple creatures, but you shouldn't write off Split Second. It's really nasty and stops other players from responding, which can save your ass quite a lot. And adding one more Wrecking Ball won't help this deck. All that does is shift the mana curve higher, making it less likely that you'll get the mana you need more consistently

He was talking about my sideboard, with the point about Sudden Shock. And my response to the point, was, is about the sideboard. Sudden Shock only deals 2 damage tho, so it's creature power reach is bad, below average, ok at best. Now if it was 2 damage, boardwipe, that would make it better. As a sideboard slot, I am looking for 2,3 BOARD WIPE cards, to help my 2 BOARD WIPE INCENDIARY COMMAND MAINDECKED cards, boardwipe swarm, horde, token, weenie, win on turns 2,3 by sheer number of 1/1, 2/2, 3/3 creatures decks, which are a problem. Have plenty of way to deal with, spot removal creatures, so don't need spot removal in Sideboard, as spot removal is not a problem, not lacking in main deck. That's why in my sideboard Slagstorm is a better fit then sudden shock.

As a main deck card, the problem is lack of reach, and that it does not also destroy a land. As such it takes away a deck slot that could be used to destroy a land, an or a creature, which is extremely important in a land destruction deck notorious for their limited slots, and needing LOTS of land destruction cards, cards that help land destruction. As such there is no room for sudden Shock, heck not even room for BOLT, which is better then sudden shock, because BOLT doesn't also destroy a land.

Yes Wrecking Ball affects the curve, but as long as it's not more then 1,2 more of them, and as long as not decreasing the BOOM, MOLTEN RAIN, STONE RAIN, and as long as not more then 3,4 cmc, and AS LONG AS HAVE ENOUGH TO PLENTY OF FETCH LANDS, BLACK DUAL LANDS,ETC, AND I DO WITH 8 FETCH LANDS,AND 14 TO 17 DUAL LANDS, BIRDS, SIMIAN SPIRIT GUIDES, WHICH I DO HAVE THAT, THEN WILL STILL HAVE THE MANA TO CAST IT, AND WILL STILL BE ABLE TO CONSISTENTLY DESTROY LAND BY, ON TURNS 1,2,3, BECAUSE ONLY LOWERS CHANCE TO DO THAT BY ABOUT 1,2,3% percentage points while increasing the numbers of cards that destroy creatures, making it either a fair trade off or extremely close to being a fair trade off.

Also adding the extra Wrecking Ball, made it possible to cut 1 Acidic Slime to add 1 semi finisher, in Thragtusk, so trade off worth it. Adding 1 more Wrecking Ball has helped, will help deck. Having 1 more creature removal card does help. And before you say it's 4 cmc, that's not a issue,the reason why it's not an issue, is because 4 cmc is castable
turns 2,3,4,5. My goal is not to destroy a creature by, on turns 1,2,3, when I would rather be destroying a land. If I wanted to destroy a creature turns 1, 2,3 I would run BOLT. Instead I would rather be destroying land early turns, then destroy a creature turns 4,5,6, which I can better do with more Wrecking Ball type creature removal cards. But if I run BOLT, in place of wrecking ball, then I won't be able to destroy a land on turn 2, an or 3, as well, because of less land destruction cards, this is why want 3,4 cmc combo land destruction, creature destruction card like wrecking ball, the VERSATILITY, IF PLAY WRECKING BALL, OR LACK OF VERSATILITY, IF DONT PLAY WRECKING BALL, EITHER MAKES, BREAKS LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS. MAKES IF YOU PLAY WRECKING BALL, BREAKS IF YOU DONT PLAY WRECKING BALL.

You know what would make my day? Someone casting Declaration of Naught and declaring Wrecking Ball. I would laugh my ass off because then the one card you say makes or breaks this deck will be utterly useless. God you really need to face a tier 1 control or aggro deck. Then you would see just how little land destruction really does in a competitive match. I mean my infect can swing for legal on turn 2 with only one forest for fucks sake. Do you really think top tier decks care about you blowing one land a turn if it's primarily sorcery speed? For crying out loud, control is dangerous with a single untapped island! Good luck blowing it up when everything you cast gets countered, and then when you're empty handed and they whip out their finisher with the quickness, you're up shit creek. I have piloted and faced off against many tier one decks in my few short years of magic, both modern and legacy, and NOT ONCE have I ever been faced with land destruction. Stop trying to make your deck sound like something it's not, because it isn't, and unless WotC loses their mind and reprints a legacy land destro spell like Sinkhole or makes some insane modern land destro spell, then land destruction will never run with the big boys. Face it. This is a mid tier deck with lofty ambitions that's just waiting for a break that won't come. Move on and try something truly worth tier one like Flash Hulk or Modern Bridge.

Look, I already said a ZILLION times deck is weak against HORDE, SWARM, WEENIE, TOKEN, SPEED, INFECT, WIN ON TURNS 1,2,3 DECKS. THAT'S WHAT A SIDEBOARD IS FOR, TO DEAL WITH THOSE PROBLEM DECKS.

As for control, the only 1 mana needed for COUNTER, APPLIES TO LEGACY. LEGACY IS NOT MODERN, LEGACY FORMAT DECKS EAT ALMOST ALL MODERN FORMAT DECKS. LEGACY, MODERN DONT COMPARE TO EACH OTHER.

There is only 1, 1 cmc COUNTER, and it gives a 2/2. And unless your playing a blue COUNTER deck with 15 to 30 COUNTERS IN IT, then yeah that would work, then after beating this deck would lose to all the speed, agro, midrange, counter hate out there.

Also most blue counter control decks only play with 5 to 10 to 13 counterspells, that cost 2,3 cmc, in MODERN FORMAT play. This means that likely not have land, mana to counter land destruction. And if they do counter land destruction, have enough land, mana, then will BAIT, SWITCH, SNEAK STUFF THRU, when their land is tapped, or when they temporarily run out of counterspells for 1,2,3 turns.

Also even if they counter stuff, I can still use Eternal Witness to get it back, and if counter that, then can shuffle the cards from graveyard back into library. Eventually going to run out of counterspells. And if tap mana to get out your win con, then don't have the mana to counter my win con.

And that's game 1. Game 2. I sideboard in Autumn's Veil, and Surgical Extraction, and Leyline of lifeforce, and then your counterspelling is NEUTERED. Same with game 3.

That's what sideboards do, they deal with problem decks.

And as I have said a ZILLION TIMES, U DID NOT SAY LAND DESTRUCTION IS TIER 1. NOR DID I SAY THIS DECK WAS TIER 1. I DID SAY THIS DECK US A TIER ONE POINT FIVE BETWEEN TIER ONE AND TWO, DECK AT BEST, AND THAT DECK US A SPOILER DECK, THAT LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD, SEMI COMPETITIVE AGAINST TIER 1, ONE, TIER 1.5, ONE POINT FIVE, EXPENSIVE DECKS, AND THAT AMONGST PURE 100 PERCENT LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS IT IS 1 OF THE BETTER, TO BEST PURE LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS, BECAUSE MOST PURE LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS ONLY DESTROY LAND BY, ON TURNS 3,4,5,6, NOT BY TURNS 1,2,3 LIKE THIS LAND DESTRUCTION DECK, AND DONT HAVE FINISHERS LIME THIS DECK HAS, AND DOES NOT DESTROY CREATURES LIKE THIS LAND DESTRUCTION DECK DOES. THAT'S WHY THOSE CASUAL KITCHEN TABLE LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS, ARE CASUAL, FUN, AND THAT'S WHY THIS LAND DESTRUCTION DECK IS BETTER THAN THOSE LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS, AND IS BETTER THAN CASUAL, FUN, KITCHEN TABLE NON COMPETITIVE FNM LIKE LESSER LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS.

ALSO THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT INFECT UNTIL A MODERN FORMAT PLAYER MADE A GREEN WHITE INFECT DECK AND WON A MODERN FORMAT PTQ TOURNAMENT, BECAUSE AT THE TIME INFECT WAS REGARDED AS A TIER 1.5, TIER 2, TIER 2.5 DECK, AND EVERYBODY THOUGHT SURELY NOBODY WOULD BE DUMB ENOUGH TO RUN INFECT SINCE IT IS TOO EASY TO SHUT INFECT DOWN WITH SIDEBOARDS, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, THEN NOBODY WILL PLAY INFECT, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, NO NEED TO SIDEBOARD AGAINST INFECT, AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT, THAT PLAYER WON THE TOURNEY WITH HIS GREEN WHITE INFECT DECK, BECAME FAMOUS, HECKLED OVERNIGHT, SHOWED WHAT INFECT COULD DO, CAUSED PEOPLE TO WORK ON,INNOVATE INFECT, ETC, UNTIL NOW IT IS BETWEEN TIER 1 TO TIER 1.5, AND PLAYED A LOT, AND THE SAME KIND OF THING CAN HAPPEN, CAN GO FROM ROGUE DECK TO MAINSTREAM DECK WITH ROGUE DECKS LIKE MILL, DISCARD, WEREWOLF, LAND DESTRUCTION, AS WHAT HAPPENED WITH INFECT.

IF INFECT CAN JUMP FROM LOWER TIER, ROGUE DECK, TO HIGHER TIER MAINSTREAM DECK, LIKE IT DID, THEN SO CAN THE OTHER LOWER TIER ROGUE DECKS. IT'S JUST A MATTER IF TIME, INNOVATION, WHICH IS LACKING IN THIS COPY,NETDECK, COPY PASTE, BUILD TIER 1 DECK, PLAY TIER 1 DECK, INSTEAD OF CREATING, INNOVATING YOUR OWN TIER 1 DECK, AGE.

REMEMBER INFECT USED TO BE THE CRAP LAUGHING STOCK DECK OF MODERN. EVERYONE SAID INFECT WAS CRAP NOT COMPETITIVE, IT TOOK A GREEN WHITE INFECT DECK, AND A PLAYER IGNORING THAT TO PROVE OTHERWISE WITH A PTQ INFECT DECK WIN.

BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN I AM SAYING THAT LAND DESTRUCTION IS A TIER 1 DECK THAT WILL WIN A TOURNAMENT ANYTIME SOON. NOT SAYING THAT.HAVENT SAID THAT.

First off, you don't know a damn thing about control. That's clear from what you wrote out. Only one single mana counter in all modern? I'm dying of laughter right now. Here, look this over and then try and explain to me how you'll beat it. I'm sure I'll get a laugh from it.

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/modern-wu-control/

Btw, I HAVE playtested this deck and DO own it in reality. It can shut down a deck like yours indefinitely, but you'll argue that I'm sure.

Now let me explain one more thing. You also know jack shit about infect because this gw deck you're talking about is utter bullshit. Sam Black piloted mono blue infect all the way to the semi-finals in Pro Tour 2011, and I'm sorry but infect has NEVER been anything less that tier 1. The very first FNM I went to after scars was released I took a green black infect deck and just wrecked. Even burn couldn't handle it. This was the time when Goblin Guide was still standard and one if the worst things to stare down on turn one, but when facing infect people backed off.

http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/deadly-forces/

This is my infect list. The current real life version is modern, so Invigorate and Worldly Tutor aren't in it, but it would still kick in the teeth of anything you throw at it, to include this deck.

Last point. I may have only been playing since Rise of the Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean anything. I have and continue to make some pretty awesome decks, both casual (which I much rather prefer) and competitive. You, who has apparently been playing since the glory days, should know then that this deck can't hold up in competitive play, regardless of whatever tier you claim it is. Yeah you'll catch people off guard with it once or twice, but that's any deck. Period.

Nobody said you didn't make good decks. Again you put words in mouth that not said. Legacy control is what you were talking about, when I said that legacy control will eat anything, because it's legacy control. Modern control isn't as good as you think. There is a reason why it's not played as much, because most modern format counterspells, are 2,3 mana. And most run 3 to 9 counterspells. And It's Easy Enough TO BAIT, SWITCH, SNEAK STUFF THRU COUNTERSPELLS. You learn to do that when you play against control.


And what I said about AUTUMN'S VEIL, SURGICAL EXTRACTION, LEYLINE OF LIFEFORCE, CAVERN OF SOULS, IS TRUE, THAT IT NEUTERS CONTROL. Players sideboard so much anti control hate. That's why blue black, blue, white counterspell control in Modern isn't as good as you think. Not saying it's Bad.

As far as what I said about infect, I read what I said in either SCRY, DUELIST, MTGSALVATION, TCG. They had a big freaking article on the players green white infect modern format deck win of a GP, PTQ, and how nobody sideboarded against his infect deck, because they thought nobody would run infect in a MODERN FORMAT tournament.

That mono blue infect tournament win was either a STANDARD FORMAT INFECT DECK, or if it was MODERN FORMAT, it was AFTER THE green white infect MODERN FORMAT deck win, which could have been the case since I did not mention the year, because did not know the exact year.

Also I know full well how awesome infect was in STANDARD FORMAT BACK IN THE DAY,as my BLUE BLACK GREEN INFECT DECK WAS PRETTY GOOD IN STANDARD BACK THEN (Took me most of the standard block to build it, only to have it cycle out 3 weeks to 1,2 months later.). But after Infect cycled out of standard. It for a short time ruled MODERN UNTIL MODERN FORMAT PLAYERS started sideboarding Melira to SHUT DOWN INFECT.

Then after that for a while Infect became a tier 1.5, tier 2, tier 2.5 ROGUE DECK. Almost everybody stopped playing it because of MELIRA, Sideboards. Then because of that, players stopped sideboarding for infect, because almost nobody played it in Modern Format. That's about the time the GW infect deck won a GP, PTQ. Then after that, INFECT WENT FROM ROGUE DECK, TO TIER 1.5 again.

Then shortly after that, was probably the time the Mono Blue infect won, pushing infect to a tier 1 to tier 1.5 deck,until it's a tier 1, top 10 deck today.

Infect was awesome in STANDARD FORMAT. Then there was a time when MODERN FORMAT infect decks, were not as good, and were ROGUE decks, until they gradually became the tier 1, top 10 deck they are today.

I actually wanted to turn my standard infect deck, into a Modern Format deck, but EVERYBODY sideboarded MELIRA, SHUTTED INFECT DOWN, so I went away from infect for a time, and built my blue, black, green infect deck for MODERN FORMAT, ABOUT 6,7 to 13 to 17 months ago.

Also you seem to get MODERN FORMAT, LEGACY FORMAT, STANDARD FORMAT, MIXED UP. There is only 1 or 2 1 mana counterspells in Modern Format. And 1 of the 1 or 2 of them, counterspells, then gives opponent a 2/2 kind of like a beast within type of a card, except it counterspells, cost 1 cmc, and 2/2., instead of 3/3. If there is a 2nd, there is a 3rd one most of us don't count, play, because it is extremely LIMITED, like only countering artifacts, or only countering enchantments, or only planeswalkers, or only creatures, or only instants, etc, for 1 cmc.

It's LEGACY THAT HAS A LOT OF 1 CMC COUNTERSPELLS THAT ARE NOT LIMITED.

Modern Format only has 1 or 2, 1 cmc counterspells that are not limited, and 1 of the 1 or 2, 1 cmc counterspells in Modern Format, that's not limited, has a bad side effect of giving a opponent a 2/2. The 3rd, 1 cmc counterspelll in Modern is LIMITED to 1 or 2 types of things it can counter

Also your missing the point, that there is a lot of COUNTERSPELL HATE CARDS IN MODERN FORMAT THAT NEUTER, SHUT DOWN COUNTERSPELLING THAT SHUTS DOWN COUNTERSPELL DECKS IN MODERN

There are a lot of cards that trip up any kind of deck, not just control. Stop treating it like only control gets all the hate, or only infect gets all the hate. And I'm sorry but melira rarely is a staple in sideboards as a dedicated infect stopper because she's squishy. I swing, you block with her, I drop a giant growth and she still dies from damage. And I also never once said anything about legacy control, because I don't have the money to play it. I can't afford a set of Force of Will so that hinders me from the get go.

Oh and my buddy dropped a link for me to share with you. Enjoy

http://www.mtgvault.com/razzan/decks/viva-le-boomz/

Oh yeah I forgot. That mono blue infect deck that Sam Black piloted. Yeah that was the 2011 MODERN pro tour in Philadelphia. I'm not some week old Timmy that doesn't know the difference between the formats dumbass.

Oh, and there are FIFTEEN one mana counter spells in modern, and two of them are actually in my deck, but you obviously haven't looked or you would know that. And Swan Song is crap for modern, since you keep bringing it up. Stopping a spell and giving your opponent a 2/2 with evasion is a piss poor trade off

Legacy only has 5 counterspells that matter and only 2 of those are 1 mana and only 1 of those is legal in modern.

Force of will
Daze
Flusterstorm
Counterspell
Spell Pierce

Also, Asturonethorius, enjoy decks you can't beat.

http://www.mtgvault.com/xeras/decks/advent-of-12-moons/

http://www.mtgvault.com/xeras/decks/burn-the-world/

Let's count them off!

Annul
Avoid Fate
Dispel
Guttural Response
Invasive Surgery
Mana Tithe
Nix
Outwit
Rebuff the Wicked
Spell Piece
Spell Snare
Steel Sabotage
Stubborn Denial
Swan Song
Turn Aside

The only one I didn't add was Mental Misstep, because it's banned in Modern. The rest are all modern legal, and about 3 or 4 of them actually see play in competitive decks. By the way, Swan Song isn't one of those 3 or 4.

That was my point, that only 1,2, of them are worth playing, and or are actually consistently played. Most on that list are not played. Therefore if you ask most of us about 1 cmc counterspells in Modern, most of us are going to say there is ABOUT 1,2,3 cmc counterspells in Modern, because that's all that's ever seen, an or mean that's the only stuff played,an or forget, an or sometimes wrong about the exact number of them in the format. The point I was making was valid that 1 cmc counterspells are not a worry in MODERN FORMAT. They are a worry in Legacy, Vintage, because all of them are played regularly very effectively, like Force of Will. In Modern Format you typically see REMAND, MANA LEAK, NEGATE, CANCEL, etc, and that ca be dealt with. In Legacy, 4 force of Will, and other stuff early, = SCOOP. That usually doesn't happen in Modern.

...ok let me explain something very clearly here. You do have to worry very much about those two particularly popular one mana counters, because they are easily the one thing that can fuck you over. Let me sum it up as simply as I can for you. Spell Pierce seems harmless for a one drop, but it sees play in legacy. That's a pretty big pool to work with for counters, and it gets picked quite often.

Now Spell Snare might not see legacy play, but it can single handedly cockblock EVERY, and you can quote me on this, EVERY MAJOR MODERN COMPETITIVE DECK. Why? Because ALL OF THEM have key cards that cost 2. If control goes first and they drop an island and pass turn, there are at least eight one mana counters probably in that deck of theirs and it's very likely that they have one in hand.

Until you have faced down a top tier control deck, you don't know how daunting an untapped island can be. And legacy? Hell they don't even need land to counter your shit. Just Force of Will and another blue spell to pitch to it. Do yourself a favor and stop acting like you know how control works because you clearly don't. I play control in many different formats and styles, from hand disruption to counters to board control. Control is my bitch, so don't try and talk to me about how easy you think it is to bait and switch a control player into covering the wrong stuff. Unless we have no hand, we LET YOU cast that spell successfully, because we KNOW it's not a threat.

Wasn't talking about legacy, was talking about Modern, and in Modern, Remand, Negate, Mana Leak, Cancel, are the MOST PLAYED COUNTERSPELLS, and those particular counterspells are easily dealable with, which is why counterspell control isn't plated as much as other stuff in Modern.

I know full well how powerful LEGACY, VINTAGE control is, heck I even said that LEGACY FORCE OF WILL EARLY GAME EQUALS INSTANT SCOOP, as that's how powerful force of will is in Legacy.

But no matter how many times I have said that, you either misread it, twist it around in your head, spin it around I'm your head, get Legacy, and Modern mixed up so that think I am talking about legacy, when I was talking about modern,aada vice versa, etc, to where you put words in my mouth I didn't say, and or spin, twist what I say, etc, all because of either, an or assumptions you have made about what I said, an or not reading, skimming, etc, an or lack of comprehending what I said, meant, etc.

Now maybe I need to be shorter, clearer, etc, in what I write, but your assumptions, skimming, not reading, twistimg, spinning, putting words in my mouth,nnt remembering, bad reading comprehension, whatever, whichever it is, is not good.

Negate and cancel don't see nearly as much play as you seem to think. You missed about three other counters that ARE played as much as you think the others are.

If you're prepared for it, anything is able to be dealt with. That's the entire reason why the sideboard exists.

I never assumed you were talking about legacy instead of modern. That was aaaaallllllll you. I haven't put shit in your mouth, which is astounding considering you can't seem to keep it shut and it's already pretty full of shit as it is.

I don't skim through any of your comments before responding, because if I did them i wouldn't be finding the glaring holes and issues that you put on display for everyone hear to see. And I do comprehend the things you say, which is amazing considering your atrocious grammar. I've met people that learned English as their third language that can write a thousand ties better than you can.

Yes, shorter comments would be much appreciated by all of us on here reading your poorly constructed sentences. Hell you deck is constructed better than your comments.

drakraenes
"Yes, shorter comments would be much appreciated by all of us on here reading your poorly constructed sentences. Hell you deck is constructed better than your comments."

If I could +1 that comment a thousand times I would.

It's still a work in progress, but since we're on the topic of control... I'm just going to leave this here.
http://www.mtgvault.com/kjsj3/decks/ur-control/

no because the OP would claim the results are manipulated and that you wanted his deck to lose and that you played it wrongly.
(or, if, by miracle, you have positive results for the deck, the others would assume you tested it against stupid decks/players)
ALSO if you did that, you would reward all the attention whoring!

True... True... Although I don't play to lose.

Does anyone? I mean even suicide black plays to win. Hell I play reckless rakdos with one of my casual decks and while I often end up killing myself, I go down fighting. It needs an update though, what with stuff like Demonic Pact out there now

personally I would love for somebody to proxy this deck in some form and test it against high level modern decks. Be it in cocatrice or forge or anything. and if it does well then it does well, and if it loses... then perhaps OP will stop ranting about why everyone who critiques his/her deck is a blithering idiot. which would be nice.

Heck, OP doesn't even have the deck, so for all the theory that OP claims is in the deck... it hasn't been validated.

1. Not everyone is criticizing deck. 2. Only 2,3 to 4,5, have, out of THE MAJORITY who have not criticized the deck, and actually think the deck is great, and have said deck is great 3. Only 1,2 of those few in the minority that have criticized deck, have given constructive criticism. 4. Being PUSCHY PUSHY and insulting, and belittling, and name calling, and offending is not constructive criticism. 5. The only ones who have called anyone a idiot is among the few who have UNCONSTRUCTIVELY criticizeddeck, me. 6. I still have not called anyone a idiot. I have given PUSCHBACK, PUSH BACK, when 1,2 were unconstructive criticizing me, deck, being pushy, insulting, etc.7. If don't want pushback from me, or anyone else, then behave yourself 8. Having a disagreement on logic, based on logic, then explaining why you disagree, with logic, and then trying to convince with logic, like I have done, is not calling someone a idiot.9. I have agreed with a couple, few, some of the constructive points made. I even acknowledged, said that deck is a tier 15 deck, between tiers 1 and 2 at best, and that the deck is a spoiler, level the playing field deck, and that it struggles against AFFINITY, HORDE, SWARM, WEENIE, INFECT, WIN ON,BY TURN 2,3 DECKS, ad that's what the sideboard is for. 10. Those points of course, never get seen, read,understood, agreed to, by the hecklers in the minority 11. I have even taken some of the constructive advice,when it's been made constructively, with logic, when I agreed with it. But as I said, that goes unseen, and if don't take every single suggestion, then they start behaving badly.

Now having said those factual,true points above,of course they wot be read seen, understood, agreed with, etc

Now that said, I think it would be great if the deck was tested at those places named. Problems I see tho, is if testing the deck there, at those places is ok, good, etc,then the few hecklers will say that it was against bad players, decks. Also if the deck did not do well, instead of covering why, and how to fix any of the problems, fine tuning deck, the few hecklers would not hesitate to heckle away, instead of being costructive. Also 1 to 5 games would not be a big enough sample size, the deck could have gotten lucky, or unlucky, etc. Only about 15 to 150 games would semi accurately test out deck. Also there are many great awesome decks that sometimes don't do well in competitive testing, because they were not fine tuned right. So initial competitive play testing does not always prove anything 1 way or another, and only sometimes reveals possible problem, that need to be fixed, and possible fine tunings that needed to be made.

For example back in INNISTRAD, DARK ASCENSION days I played in some of the toughest FNM'S ever. I made a werewolf deck, that without knowing it at the time, was extremely similar to PRO BRIAN KIBBLER'S werewolf deck build that finished in 16th place on the pro tour, which was the best a werewolf deck has done.

During initial playtesting of the deck, it was inconsistent. Great when it worked. I had to fine tune it, fix problems, replay test it, then some more fine tuning, fixing of problems, until it was competitive tournament ready.

At that 69 to 79 player super competitive FNM, the deck finished 4th, 5th place, and destroyed WOLF RUN TITAN (Tournament winner), and destroyed DELVER (finished 2nd, 3rd)

That demonstrates the proper way to use competitive playtesting.

If competitive play testing is not used that way, then there is really no point to it.

But if competitive play testing is used that way, the it is a good thing.

You know for someone who says he doesn't appreciate name calling, you start heckling puschkin an awful lot. Where was it again? Oh yeah, your 4th point in the above comment. And again in the 6th point. It sounds to me like you can't take someone telling you the cold hard facts about your deck. We're gladly recognizing its potential in certain situations, but this deck is not and will not ever stand a chance at any competitive event, playtesting or not, unless a new and very devastating land destruction spell gets printed that makes people want to try it themselves. The things you quoted as being the stuff your deck struggles with, and I quote "AFFINITY, HORDE, SWARM, WEENIE, INFECT, WIN ON,BY TURN 2,3 DECKS", make up the most heavily played decks in all of modern, which coincidentally were in the link I posted earlier today that details the top ten decks in modern at the current moment, but I guess the truth hurts a bit much when the logic we give you doesn't fit in with your narrow view, doesn't it? The only thing you're doing is digging your own grave, and believe me when I say that the deeper you dig, the worse off you will end up, so do yourself a favor and drop it.

I have never called PUSCHIN a idiot. Do I PUSH BACK, AND HECKLE THE HECKLER? YES. You will note that I only PUSHBACK,HECKLE the 1,2 HECKLERS. You will note that I don't heckle anyone who makes constructive comments.

I may disagree, but I explain why I agree or disagree. I use logic, reason. I don't heckle, call constructive commenters idiots. And making Heckling comments is not constructive.

Guess going to have to agree to disagree and move on. Also like I said the deck is not going to finish in 1st to 8th place consistently at a GP. PTQ, against tier 1 decks. About the best that deck will do is act as a spoiler, leveling playing field, being semi competitive, and finishing about 8th, 9th to 14th, 15th, 16th place at extreme best, at GP, PTQ, states, regional, CONVENTION, City, non FNM, or only those couple best in the country FNM's(not talking about average run of the mill crappy FNM TIMMY tournaments, I am talking about the type of FNM where everyone plays tier 1 decks, and plays in the GP, PTQ, PRO TOUR).

That's a reasonable expectation, and the goal of the deck.

If disagree with that, then fine, ok, agree to disagree, and move on.

But whatever don't keep on putting words in my mouth, that were either not said, not understood, misrepresented, misunderstood, taken out of context, blown out of proportion, etc. In other words don't spin,twist, what I say around.

And not saying you have done that, but hecklers have done that. Basically the Hecklers are nitpicking every letter of what I say, then heckling over it.

And getting tired of dealing with the hecklers in minority, and repeating, clarifying overlooked, misunderstood, etc, points.

If this crap keeps up, then will just delete the hecklers in the minority, if they don't drop it, move on.

You tell me to drop it. Others need to drop it. I just responding. The Sooner It's dropped, Move On, the sooner no no more responses from me. and this gets dropped, moved on from.

Nothing we say will ever change his mind, actually playing this is the only way to proove anything, and he has to do that himself. KJSJ3, if you have that time, why don't you and your friends not playtest it directly against Asturonethorius?

I should have some free time in about 5 hours... It's also Friday so I might do FNM.

I'm only still subscribed at this point to watch the train wreck continue to grow. It's almost hilarious, how far this has gone.

The fact that he's trying to sound like he knows what he's talking about only to shoot himself in the foot almost immediately is just sad. Like seriously, how hard is it to look up deck types and see what they usually run? Control only runs 6-9 counters? Only if it's combo-control. Dedicated control is easily a third of the decklist full of counters. I know because I have one, and he would know if he bothered to look at the deck because I linked it to him.

I heard Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, and Negate were decent/acceptable counterspells to play in Modern. I know there's more, just depends on the color combo of the deck, etc. Those are all 1 or 2 cost spells.

But what do any of the rest of us plebs know about the game, right?

He was complaining about one drop counters specifically though. When you go up to two drops, then it gets really fun. I dropped a link a few threads up with my control deck in it. It runs a lot of the one and two mana counters in modern, and it even runs *gasp* a four mana counter, because who in their right mind would run Cryptic Command, right? It's just so costly in a deck concerned with mana management.

(Please note that this is all heavily laced with sarcasm towards the end)

1. Well if by competitive you mean making decks that consistently finish 1st place thru 4th place in Pro Tour, GP, PTQ, you may probably could be right. But if not mean that, and mean top 5 to 7 to 9 of ANY competitive MODERN FORMAT TOURNAMENTS, that not GP, PTQ, etc, or top 10 to top 20 to top 25 at a GP, PTQ, then I would have to disagree with you.

As far as constructive criticism goes,if its logical, etc, and if it rebuttles, refutes with logic, if I were to disagree, and give logic, why I disagreed, then I do take that particular kind of constructive criticism.

Now there only has been 3,4,5,6,7 who have not thought the deck was, is great. They are in the MINORITY, as MOST do think this deck is great.

Of those who have been critical, 1,2, maybe even 3 of them have been PUSHY, acted like KNOW IT ALLS, HECKLED, INSULTED, BELITTLED, ETC, MADE MANY SUCH COMMENTS.

Because of that there was PUSCHBACK from me, to them, and of course they are NOT going to be listened to, agreed with by me, because the were not using logic, they were, are in minority, and they were HECKLING. So I HECKLED THEM THE HECKLERS.

1,2,3 of some of the critics that in minority, have actually been CONSTRUCTIVE. I have agreed with some of what they said,and disagreed with some of what they said.

I even took, used some, but not all of their suggestions.

I suggest before you make baseless accusations, comments that you really understand, find out what was, is going on before you misunderstand, ASSUME, ACCUSE, ETC, WHEN YOU MAKE THE KIND OF COMMENT YOU MADE.

Please provide a list of individuals who actually think this deck is good. I can easily provide an extensive list of individuals who believe it is not good.

Until you actually provide definitive evidence of your high praise and accolades, I will continue to assume you are a clown.

I also think you don't understand what the word "heckle" means. You may also want to read up on the proper use of commas, as you use them all too often in your rants, incorrectly as well.

Seriously, a list would be great. I for one think the deck would be fine for kitchen table and don't doubt it's validity in that regard, but your insistence that this deck would take any modern competitive event larger than a local modern FNM is honestly laughable. We aren't heckling as you put it, we are simply explaining that your deck isn't what you claim it is because of general knowledge about the game. You would be hard pressed to find one of us telling you this that hasn't gone to some sort of PTQ or GP at some point in the past few years and seen the battlefield that is pro tour territory. I personally am friends with at least three judges that have regularly attended or officiated at GP events in my area, and they've talked deck building with me and my other friends extensively. For small scale stuff, a deck like this is most certainly a dark horse. For big tourneys that bring in people from all over, this deck is a bust and would probably not make it to the quarterfinals. It might come close, but it just can't compete at that level as it is.

Again you are putting words in mouth that not said. I did not say ALL, or EVERY of the 3,4 to 6,7 in the Minority that have criticized, are hecklers. ONLY 1,2, maybe 3 have been HECKLERS. the other 3,4,5 of the 5 to 8 in the Minority who have criticized deck, have been constructive.

And there have been those who do like, think the deck is good, great. There are about 2,3 of them who have made comments here, per each of the critical comments. It's just their comments have been buried in the 130 comments here. Then there is the 9 likes the deck has gotten. Then there is the 13 +1's at another MTG site, and about 13 to 17 comments there that say the deck is great. And only 1,2 critics of the deck at that other site. And They Were Better behaved, And More constructive, And Actually Helped Make The Deck better. So not going to take the time to make a list,when can go see for yourself.

Again I am not saying deck is going to win the, or finish top 8 at GP, PTQ, etc. But a 9th to 17th place at best at GP, PTQ, is logical, reasonable. Part of that is that BRIAN KIBBLER A PRO MADE A WEREWOLF deck that finished 16th place at PRO TOUR, GP, etc. A long time ago I made almost the same exact werewolf deck, almost card for card as BRIAN KIBBLER'S deck. I didn't copy his deck, he didn't copy my deck. The reason why I am going into this, is THIS LAND DESTRUCTION DECK BEATS BRIAN KIBBLER'S THE PRO'S WEREWOLF DECK ALL THE TIME CONSISTENTLY, that finished 16th place at the PRO TOUR. so based on that since this deck destroys the 16th place at PRO TOUR deck,this deck should be able to finish 13th to 27th place at the PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ.

A KITCHEN TABLE DECK, CASUAL, FUN DECK WONT DO THAT WELL, WONT CONSISTENTLY BEAT BRIAN KIBBLER'S DECK.

A KITCHEN TABLE, CASUAL, FUN deck are those LESSER land destruction decks, that do not destroy land until turns 3, 4, 5,6. Do not have a win con. Or can't get win con out. And doesn't have creature removal, an or doesn't destroy creatures. My land destruction deck destroys lands consistently by, on turns 1,2,3 instead of turns 4,5,6 like crap decks, and destroys creatures turns 3,4,5,6,7 unlike crap deck s. And so is better then lesser, crap, kitchen table, casual land destruction decks.

This deck would win, top 5 the lesser FNM's, and would top 5 to top 9 the more competitive, toughest FNM's, and would top 9 to top 11 to top 13 city, conventional, competitive tournaments, and top 11 to top 14 to top 17 regional events, and top 13 to top 27 PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ events.

The Deck Is A darkhorse, spoiler, Level The Playing Field Semi competitive, TIER ONE POINT FIVE TO TIER 2 ROGUE DECK AT BEST. AND IT IS BETTER THAN ALL THOSE LESSER LAND DESTRUCTION DECKS.

This deck is about the equivalent of WEREWOLF, MILL, DISCARD, ANY OTHER TIER 1.5, TIER 2 TIER 2.25 ROGUE DECK.

AND ROGUE DECKS ARE BETTER THEN YOU THINK, ARE NOT CRAP FNM, CASUAL, KITCHEN TABLE DECKS, and are BETTER then crap, casual FNM, Kitchen table decks.

LAND DESTRUCTION, ROGUE DECKS, LIKE THIS DECK, ARE BETWEEN DECKS. WAY TO GOOD FOR KITCHEN TABLE, CASUAL,FNM, and ALMOST good enough, but just barely, by skin of teeth, not quite good enough to consistently top 8 to top 13 at a PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ CONSISTENTLY.

That's why BRIAN KIBBLER'S WEREWOLF DECK FINISHED 16TH AT BEST, and 23rd to 32nd place, most of the time, which is where TEMPERED STEEL finished, another ROGUE deck at the time.

Oh and that's another thing. Land destruction, with a sideboard beats tempered steel in a 3 game match. I used to play a lesser different variant version of this deck, and used to beat tempered steel in games 2, game 3, of 3 game matches,consiatently. Yeah it destroyed deck game 1, but after sideboard, it win games 2,3. Tempered Steel typically won on turns 3,4, unless you stopped, slowed them down, board wipe them by turns 2,3,4. And if you did that the deck typically ran out of steam by turn 6,7, where midrange, control would take over.

That's not how this works. Give me definitive numbers, proof, links, and usernames. Would you like me to start my list?

Also, I know Brian personally. He would destroy you, or anyone, piloting this deck.

All you're doing is bitching and moaning because you don't want to hear the truth. And we honestly don't give a shit about the fact that your deck has 9 likes, when surewhynot and I each have a deck that is among the top ten MOST liked decks on vault with mine at 204 and his at 334. You think single digit likes are going to impress us? I've seen truly garbage decks get four times the likes you have currently. Hell, the FORUM DECKS HAVE MORE LIKES THAN YOU DO! And I like how you suddenly have deck results vs a deck that also is nothing more than an off beat deck that isn't even played anymore. And your claim about this werewolf deck of yours isn't swaying us. And I kinda feel like you're a bit butt hurt that my friends shared his own land destruction deck and then told you the same damn thing that we've all been saying. That this deck isn't THAT good, as in competitively. And I feel like you need to take a class in statistics, because your claim about where it would place in the various levels of competitive settings is highly skewed by your own bloated ego. But what do I know? I'm just a heckler right?

And you sir, have just made my day

+1 like to the gent above

That's what we keep telling him but he refuses to listen

Razzan, the reason why you think the mana base is a problem, is because(not saying your doing this), some think that splashing a 3rd color is a problem. And or you don't see that with all the FETCH LANDS, DUAL LANDS, there is no trouble getting the right mana needed. Maybe 1 game out of 10 to 15 games, it is a problem if don't mulligan. There are 4 Wooded foorhills, 4 blood stain Mire that can fetch any of the 7 dual lands, comprised of Stomping Ground, BLOOD CRYPT, OVERGROWN TOMB, ETC, add to that Birds, Simian Spirit guides, and it's rare that don't have the right kind of mana to cast double red Molten Rain, or double black to cast Befoul, and double green to cast Acidic Slime. Mana base is just fine. I have playtested enough sample hands (about 100 to 1000), to see that it the mana base works just fine.

As far as the 1 of Charmbreaker, not only can I fetch it, but if it is destroyed. I can Mimic Vat it. I can fetch it from graveyard with Eternal Witness, and I can shuffle it into deck, with Primal Command, then fetch it from deck, then put it back into play. Also Charmbreaker usually swings for game in 1,2, turns, and usually removal is used before, and not saved for charmbreaker, and usually takes 2, 3 turns to destroy charmbreaker, so usually get at least 1 swing with charmbreaker, before he gets destroyed. Also only running 1 charmbreaker, allows me to run Goblin Dark-Dwellers, and Thragtusk. If they get rid of Charmbreaker, then there i thragtusk, and Goblin Dark-Dwellers to worry about.

Also it's not just the turn 1 BOOM. There is turn 2 BOOM, or TURN 2 MOLTEN RAIN, STONE RAIN, WRECKING BALL.

The 8 mana dorks in conjunction with Boom, is what makes 3,4 cmc land destruction cards work. Also it's in how you play it. There are sometimes you shouldn't destroy land turn 1, even when you can. Because sometimes if destroy a land turn 1 with BOOM, MOLTEN RAIN, STONE RAIN, with 1 or 2 SPIRIT GUIDES turn 1, your right that without those spirit guides, the deck fizzles out.

But if you hold onto those spirit guides, then you use 1 turn 2 to destroy a land, then turn 3 destroy a land, and by turn 4 you probably won't need them anymore.

But I can guarantee you, that between the 7 mana dorks, BOOM, MOLTEN RAIN, WRECKING BALL, 8 FETCH LANDS DARKSTEEL CITADEL, ETC. ALL COMBINED, WORKING TOGETHER, THAT DECK CONSISTENTLY DESTROYS LANDS TURNS 1,2,3, WITHOUT FIZZLING OUT, MOST OF THE TIME, IF YOU PLAY IT RIGHT, AND IF YOU MULLIGAN OCCASIONALLY SEMI AGGRESSIVELY.

That's not to say there won't be the occasional time deck won't destroy a land first 3 turns, an or fizzle out occasionally, as that will happen occasionally, once in a super great while.

So if didn't have the 8 mana dorks, and BOOM and Molten Rain, and Stone Rain, etc, then you would be right that I would need cheaper cmc cards then 3,4 cmc land destruction cards.

Also your right that the deck needs a plan B, in case land destruction doesn't happen 1st 3 turns, without FIZZLING out.

And your right that in order to have a plan B, I would need cheaper cmc cards

The problem with that tho, if I run something like BOLT, as a plan B, those 3,4 BOLT, would lower the land destruction count, from 23 land destruction cards, to 19, 20 land destruction cards. A land destruction deck needs 21,22,23,24 land destruction cards, or the deck won't destroy lands consistently, and opponents will be then more likely to have 2,3 lands out, and get more creatures out. To keep them from doing that, deck needs at least 21,22,23,24 land destruction cards.

I really don't see how run 3,4 BOLTS, FLAME SLASH, LIGHTNING AXE, ETC, WITHOUT CUTTING 3,4 LAND DESTRUCTION CARDS, which would cause the deck to not work.

If you could find room for that, without cutting 3,4,5, etc, land destruction cards, without cutting the Mana Dorks, without cutting VAT, without cutting Charmbreaker, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Thragtusk, Exarch, Eternal Witness, then I am all ears for that.

Also this deck has destroyed, beaten the tar out of PRO BRIAN KIBBLER'S 16TH PLACE AT PRO TOUR WEREWOLF DECK, consistently.

Thanks for your comment, and being constructive in making your points. I agree with some, and disagree with some. Your a good example for others to follow.

It sounds like you disagree with about 95% of what he said and only liked that he gave you a component somewhere in there. And once again, sample hands on vault aren't play testing. A computer algorithm does not accurately show you what will not work. It's a good indicator, but you need to PHYSICALLY BUILD this deck, either by proxy or by actually purchasing it. After that, test it vs other decks and then we'll talk about what did/did not work and actually give you pointers, but given your attitude towards us already, I doubt you'll get much help. And how exactly did this deck beat pro tour werewolf deck if you haven't even built it? Just curious.

True story. Sampling hands is one thing but to actually legit test a deck, you need to legit PLAY your deck against other people. Proxies are a great way to do this (if the other player is game). No computer algorithm on the planet can accurately predict what will happen in a match because you're playing another person. People are unpredictable. In Magic, that's a major factor. Also you never know what an opponents deck is designed to do. Go ahead and play a legitimate control deck with this exact deck and tell us how well that goes.

Since you haven't actually built it and played it, im completely disregarding the comment of beating a pro tour deck. Do us all a favor ok...Stop trying to make this deck bigger than it is....stop acting like you know it all (nobody does) and accept some of the pointers these guys were trying to give you. Maybe make a copy of the deck and try adjusting it to see what others are trying to say to you. I do it alot and it works. Honestly, some of my decks wouldn't be nearly as powerful without serious input from my friends!

*whispering* atarka dragons... *shudders*

tehehehehe Also on a totally "unrelated to control/LD/whiney ego kid" topic....Would anyone mind taking a look at my Dragon Deck and give honest suggestions/feedback on how to improve it? Deck is one card away from Modern Legal but it's meant for casual tabletop play with friends, nothing tourney worthy =D

http://www.mtgvault.com/razzan/decks/the-dragon-standard/

Hey look! Logic! He'll probably dismiss it with some half-assed argument about how you don't have any experience, despite having played for at least five years, which is only speculation on my part because that's about how long it's been since you posted your first deck that I see on your profile. You likely have more time playing than that though.

lol... yeah, on and off for about 5 years. but I must admit I have never played in anything bigger than a normal FNM or prerelease event. Even so, I know a fair bit of deck theory after spending so much time spent doing card research.

Kassong 1. Again for the ZILLIONTH time, I did not say deck, land destruction deck was tier 1. I said it was TIER ONE POINT FIVE BETWEEN TIER 1 AND 2 AT THE BEST, AND THAT IT'S A DARKHORSE, SPOILER, LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD DECK, THAT WOULD FINISH ABOUT 9TH TO 13TH TO 17TH TO 27TH PLACE AT PRO TOUR, GP, PTQ AT BEST.

2. There have only been 4 to 8 critics in the minority. Of those critics, 1,2, maybe 3 of them have been HECKLERS.

3. Razzan is a good example of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and I treated him just fine. HECKLING HECKLERS IS NOT MISTREATING THOSE WHO HAVE GIVEN CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

4. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS SEEING ME HECKLE HECKLERS LIKE PUSCHIN, and getting it all twisted around in your head,where you misunderstand, seems to your wrong perception, that I am supposedly saying things I didn't say, and am supposedly heckling constructive criticism, when I am not.

5. I have actually agreed with some of the constructive criticism, suggestions, and actually too some of the suggestions. If I hadn't the deck wouldn't look like it does as of now.

6. If people behave like Razzan, there won't be problem.

For the bazillionth time: IT STILL SAYS "TIER 1" IN THE TITLE!!!

It also still says in the description:
"Goal, purpose of deck, is to Level playing field, compete vs, send EXPENSIVE cards to graveyard, of EXPENSIVE $1350 Modern, Pro, tier 1 decks." You want to beat PRO TIER 1 !!!

And now hush hush edit that out and claim it was never there.

Your right that it says TYR 1 in the title, ALBEIT with a QUESTION MARK. I actually tried to put TYR 1.5 in the title, but was too long, the thing wouldn't let me do, say that, so instead of saying TYR 1.5, I left it at TYR 1, With a Question mark at the end.

In the description I did say that the goal of the deck is to be a TIER 1.5 TYPE OF SPOILER, DARKHORSE, ROGUE TYPE OF DECK, that level the playing field, compete with, against TIER 1 DECKS.

Compete, level the playing field, spoiler, darkhorse, rogue, etc, does not necessarily mean always beat the best decks.

It mean giving the best decks a real fight, competition, run for their money, win or lose, where some of the time beat the better, best decks, and some of the time lose against the better, best decks

As an example if what I am talking about.

Back in Worldwake, Scars, Zendikar Standard format block. And in the Innistrad Standard block, I made a Standard format Land destruction deck, that was a dark horse, spoiler, Level The playing field deck. It had about a 50/50 chance of winning no matter who, what deck I played. It won about 49.9% of its games, no matter what deck it faced.

Because of that the deck often beat the tournament winning decks, while finishing in 7th, 8th, 9th place at best, to 17th to 19th place at worst, out of about 49, 59,69,79 players. No deck, no player wanted to play my deck, especially the top deck in 1st place, because my deck might beat them knock them from 1st place to 3rd, to 4th,5th place. It was very satisfying, to hear them complain about their EXPENSIVE LAND CARDS GOING TO THE GRAVEYARD, and their EXPENSIVE DECK losing to a cheap land destruction deck, that finished 16th place, that knocked them from 1st place to 5th place.

THAT DECK WAS COMPETITIVE. AND IT DID LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD, AND IT GAVE EVERY TOP DECK A FIGHT, RUN FOR ITS, THEIR MONEY, BEAT SOME OF THEM, LOST TO SOME OF THEM.

THAT KIND OF THING IS THE GOAL OF THIS DECK, IN ALL MODERN FORMAT TOURNAMENTS, AND THE DECK WILL PROBABLY DO THAT.

All that and you didn't actually answer anything that I said.

It seems like the number of critics continues to rise, yet they remain in the minority...how odd.

Wait wait wait, so you made a STANDARD land destruction deck at one point and it did good at a LOCAL FNM? That's NOTHING like what you keep trying to tell us! Oh, and about two minutes of looking shows that the best time to do a land destruction deck in standard would've been zendikar and scars with about 13ish different cards to choose from for destruction effects. And ironically, I don't doubt the validity of that decks capability. With enemy fetch lands and all the ramp in zendikar block plus some nice gems from scars, and whatever you decided to use from the core set, you could've actually made a rather powerful land destruction deck...in STANDARD. It would be good for local play and not much else because of one flaw that couldn't be fixed: mana cost per spell averaging at 4. So while it was possible, it would've been very slow starting out unless you find some mythical balance of ramp, land destruction, and board stalling to reach that point safely.

And quite frankly, by the time you got enough mana, Kuldotha Rust (designed by yours truly shameless plug) would have smacked him for 20 right in the teeth.

Also, it's quite literally because of people like this that I rarely help design tourney decks anymore.

Oh yeah I forgot about rust. Lol how do you think this deck would do vs the infamous caw blade?

Interestingly enough, it would do...Okay. It would still lose, but CAW enjoyed higher land counts than most decks around that time, so it wouldn't appreciate losing lands. Rust would destroy it though, that deck can practically run on zero lands anyway. That said, that deck was so packed with answers and control/stall effects that this deck wouldn't ever win. It would be a nuisance, but that's about it. I didn't have very much to do with CAW...Which I'm actually pretty happy about. I knew it would be way too dominant even before the final version of it came out, so I didn't really have my heart in it when I was helping with it. I helped with the sideboard mostly, couldn't stand the deck. Like I said it was too dominant, took the fun out of the game.

Kinda makes me glad that I took a hiatus from magic around that time. I would've probably quit playing if I had to face it regularly

Well and that was the thing about Rust. It was VERY dominant as well, but it never took the fun out of the game. It beat face like nothing else, but the opponent could still fight back...And it was a blast to play.

Fair enough. I've always liked the really crazy good decks so long as they don't ruin the experience. Like how I'm going to be so happy when coco decks rotate to just modern and aren't dominating standard deck lists

...are you on drugs?

Doooom. Doooom!

so much drugz you cant have any all mine

Even if I did want some, pretty sure you've taken them all already. I'll pass thanks. To the left of course

He wanted it to be competitive. While it can be, it's not tier one like he posited. We all tried to help, but he just jumped down our throats and wouldn't listen to anyone unless they told him how amazing his deck was without a smidge of criticism. Start from the top and work your way down. It's a crazy roller coaster ride for sure

I saw a bit of it, then decided I just didn't have the patience for it. I saw some comments but don't want to read the novel's worth of comments of either A) "deck revisions," B) ego stroking, C) valid criticisms that are repeated multiple times, D) "self defense" in the form of temper tantrums and obvious hot air, or E) valid frustrations of very well informed Vaulters. While I for one know what it's like to make a fun deck and praise it to high heaven just to be proven it's not as crazy as I thought it is, I'm always up to listen to people who know more than I do. At heart, I'm a fun & casual kind of player. and I know that if guys like you or NorthernWarlord or DedWads comments, don't be stupid and listen to what they have to say. There is a difference between hard-headed and just plain egomaniacal, which it appears this deck builder is. I'd go on about what else I see, but this message is long enough. I'm not wasting any more time with this deck, I'm just here to reply to your comment at this rate.

To the builder, in the words of Kendrick Lamar (and I hate that guy): Sit down, be humble.

I appreciate that. I really do. I try to keep my comments within the realm of what the deck is supposed to be (modern, pauper, etc), so when he started saying it's tier one tourney capable I just told him the honest truth, as did the others.

Unfortunately, reasonable guys like CiaranMadgrin are the exception.

ugh...I had forgotten about this train-wreck of a deck... we tried...

You can lead a horse to water...

I got all the gods in my hand and you got just bs so you know have fun kids its just a game site and chill I do a lot drugz
doom doom

I think that's fairly clear at this point.

Yeah. I would agree.

doom doom

Still more unsubstantiated claims, and you keep mentioning decks that aren't even used in a competitive format anymore. Werewolves didn't really make much of an impact during SOI that I saw, and tempered steel hasn't been in rotation for YEARS. You're so hung up on those old competitive decks that you're not able to keep up with the changing meta.

I wouldn't even make him do it. I'd take a copy of it myself, do all of the above, play it exactly how he suggests, and just try to win. I don't I'd make it into the top half of the entire event, but we'll never know.

I would be interested in how that may turn out.

1. I do not have the time, money, ability, etc, to play in a PTQ, GP, etc.

2. Even if you put up the money, it would be hard to get the money to me, arrange travel, etc.

3. Even if you could do above, I cant afford to pay you back.

4. I am a better deck builder then player. Example: In a 115 player standard tourney, I had a werewolf deck finish in 3rd, 4th place, beat wolf run titan, Delver. But should have finished 2nd, instead of 4th, and would have if I hadnt made several play mistakes. Because of that I am not a good enough player to pilot even the best deck(not talking about this deck), at a top tourney.

5. If you want to test the deck, you can build the deck, sleeve it up and take it to a top tourney, and play it yourself.

6. The deck is still semi consistent, semi inconsistent, variable, volatile, in that in 10 PTQ’s it could easily do well in 1 PTQ, while totally bombing the other PTQ’s. So because of that 1 PTQ, is not accurate even if the deck were to do well.

7. I didnt say the deck would win 75% if the time. I said it would win about 49.9% of games, and finishing in 200th place out of 600 is not 75%, is not great. To finish in 200th place you have to win 50% of your games in your 3 game matches, and at least win at least 50% of your matches. Thats accurate, because in a FNM I finished in 8th place out of 43 players , where I won about half my games in 3 game matches, and won about half my matches.

I'm just going to leave this here. "Against GP grand prix: should : 40th place to 70th place( 175 to 435 players)" that is copied right from your post.

To place that high a 400+ tourney means winning about 70% of your matches. The people in the top 32 generally only drop 1 or 2 rounds and have bad tiebreakers. People in the top 16 have good tiebreakers.

I don't know why I read everything, but after all that, I must ask. Have you ever actually played this a large competitive setting? Against tier 1 decks? And people use aggro as examples because the meta is aggro. How do you beat grixis shadow? Dredge? Burn? You don't. Your removal spells cost too much and a stubborn denial wrecks your day. Charmbreaker devils die too easily to be considered finishers. Stormbreath dragon dodges push, path, and bolt and closes the game faster since its a flier. Control wrecks you too. Mana leak, spell pierce and snapcaster mages for days. They will also always have more cards in hands than you.

You need blood moons, since they give free wins. All your speculation is based on god draws that assume your opponent is going to let your ramp live. I saw plenty of people offering you constructive criticism. I will refrain from doing so since you don't want to listen

So, in other words, you only posted to advertise your own deck ...

At least it's relevant for OP

Yeah, because we all know how well the OP listenes to others ;)

I thought OP listened very well. just dismissed everything as invalid because it didn't fit their alternative facts.

OP is secretly Donald Trump. He intends to drain the swamp with this deck, but he completely ignores the Urborg in play, thereby accomplishing nothing.

But, what if OP is secretly Hilary Clinton? And the collusion with Urborg is real?

God help us all. Someone light up the Bald-signal and summon Bernie Sanders!

Bwahahahahahahahaha! ROFL!
If I feel the Bern, then I know we are in trouble here on the vault.

So, OP tried to make LD great again but failed to repeal VaultCare which he hates because free deckhelp for everyone is socialist witchcraft. He then fired several high ranking officials and investigators. Let's start a Gitaxian Probe to decide if there was obstruction of https://magiccards.info/wl/en/26.html

lol... very well played Puschkin. :)
that being said, i think this joke is played out. we might need to have a deck shutdown to prove our point.

I cannot even at this comment chain now.

This comment chain is gonna be YUGE!