TheForum

I'm thinking I'm going to take out Gideon, COJ from Azorious. He would be pretty good in the revamped version of this deck. Combing him with Sleep and/or Dungeon Geists could be pretty good.

-Bill

Smaller, Faster, Stronger...

OUT - 4 Gather the Townsfolk, 2 Plains, 2 Guardians' Pledge
IN - 4 Warclamp Mastiff, 4 War Falcon

I like the take-outs, in that order.

I'm not sure Deathmist really belongs here. He seems like he would need a flip-centric deck, and this deck is all about the counters, baby. Don't be tempted to split your focus.

4 Servants and 2 Hangarbacks seems like a good start to me.

-Mike

After looking at the white removal spells I'm not sure I like many of them because of how conditional they are. I feel like with this deck I'm going to want to spend early mana casting stuff on my turn so that I can comfortably cast Den Protector or HDS for their morph costs and not feel like that is putting me behind. I see what you are saying with Fleecmane Lion because it won't help the Avatar. I do think I probably want to put the Servants back in because they are great turn one if I don't have a Scales out. I also think I want Hangarbacks when I get the money together to buy them. Also, the more I think about it the more I like Deathmist Raptor but I'm not sure if eight other flip triggers is enough to warrant it. I'll have to do some research to see what people did with the Den/Deathmist combo as far as other Morph triggers go.

So right now I'm thinking:
In- 4 Servants, ? - Hangarbacks, ?- Deathmist (Maybe)
Out- 2 Daghatar, 2 Undergrowth, 2 Wildcall

Help with the particular's would be appreciated.

Thanks

-Bill

With the amount of Scrying and card draw you can do You shouldn't need 4 Jace. With 3 you should see one almost every game if you aren't getting screwed or dead by turn 6. While he is better when you can get him down early so you can ultimate him when you are ready (both with board state and cards in hand) you really shouldn't need more than one. Hopefully you get him out with enough cards in hand to protect him but if he dies it isn't the end of the world because you still hypothetically have cards in hand to hurt your opponents board and draw your finisher. Jace is just really good because he can do (to varying degrees of effectiveness) 3 useful abilities.

I understand wanting the ability to kill someones early threat but outside of maybe 2-3 decks that you would play against, taking a couple of early hits before you can cast Anger of the Gods, or Supreme Verdict shouldn't be that big a deal. However if play testing shows that isn't the case then throw them back in, but I really think they are replaceable.

Upon further consideration, if you are hurting for card slots, you could drop 1 or even 2 of the Elspeths. Right now as constructed in the side board you have 5 true finishers (Aetherling, Niv, 3 Elspeths) plus 2 pseudo finishers (Keranos). That is a somewhat high number of finishers for a control deck and it may be worth considering dropping an extra one if there is something you really want to include. This is not by any means something I think you should do, its just an option if you really wanted more control cards or something.

The one less mana may be bug early with regards to Negate of Dissolve. But with instant speed draw and enough control cards after a few turns the one mana difference should be negligible as well and if you like the more versatile counter with the scry upside I would keep it in. The card I would maybe consider over Dissolve other than Negate is Counterflux. It may not be totally worth it over the scry but the un-counterable counter spell could be really awesome as people start to play more and more counterspells in our meta. Plus the overload possibility could make an appearance as well. Though I'd have to read up on how priority, turn order and such work a little better to know if the overload would ever be helpful in a 1v1 match. A couple extra counterspells may also be more useful to you than Banishing Light. I don't know for sure but being able to protect your finisher in the control mirror may be better than more exile effects.

All-in-all though I really like the changes you've made to it. Having 6-10 board wipes plus the ability to really blow up token strategies make this a pretty versatile deck. Biggest thing is going to be tweaking the balance of card draw and control until you find the right distribution.

-Bill

I actually kind of disagree with Eric and Boyce. I think the deck's main problem is it's lack of true 2-drops. In terms of threats, there's Avatar of the Resolute and that's it. And even then, you'd probably prefer to play the Avatar later. I actually don't hate Wildcall because it can play for 2 (not ideal, I know). Hangarback Walker is better, but more expensive as you said.

I'm not sure Fleecemane Lion really fits either. Here are some other suggestions to help with the curve:
(X) Endless One (Zendikar)
(XG) Mistcutter Hydra (Theros)
(G) Servant of the Scale (Tarkir)
(1G) Ainok Guide (Tarkir)
(WW) Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit (Tarkir)
(1G) Rot Shambler (Zendikar)

I especially like the Servant and Endless One, as they're excellent turn 1 precursors to a turn 2 Avatar. The Endless One is a better late game draw, but the Servant is much better when cast early. Anafenza would be great, but the (WW) could be a problem.

All that said, you might want to consider cheap removal instead. There's not a lot of interaction or lifegain here, so you might struggle to make games last long enough to overwhelm with your counters in some cases. White has a few decent options here in the 2 cmc range.

-Mike

Thanks for the response on this deck. I realized pretty quickly that I wouldn't want to be exiling cards with Chandra since so many of the cards depend on timing. Both of Jace's first two abilities will help me get through the early game and Ral is at worst two lightning bolts.

You are right in that I don't really need to make Keranos function as a creature, his ability is just insane on its own and presents an element of inevitability.

I was looking at card draw earlier and its either too expensive at instant speed, or its Divination which is meh. It wouldn't be hard to try out and you may be right, but I think with all my scry sources (which was also a big bonus from Magma Jet) can usually smooth out my draws.

I am worried about getting blitzed which is why I wanted to include some early removal at instant speed. I think Jace also helps here in two ways, he nerfs attacks and is another target to buy me more time. Maybe I should make him a four of?

I am also considering replacing the Dissolves with Negates since I already have a shit load of creature hate.

So I don't know what happened between like 6:30 and now but I thought I posted a comment on this deck and it isn't here yet you have made a lot of the changes I was trying to mention. I'm really glad you got rid of the Chandra's for the Jace's. Jace is just better for this deck than Chandra, plus the Pyromaster version is just kinda terrible (I'm sure there is a build that can make her worth while but it isn't what you're going for here). I love the three Elspeth's, she is a major win con for you and Ral seems super fun. The america super friends idea seems really powerful. I don't think the blue devotion shell you talked about is worth the value you would lose so I don't think that is the direction you should go. As far as optimizations go, I don't know if there is a good way to consistently get Keranos to be a creature (The best thing I could come up with was Awaken the Ancient) but I don't think you need him to be. Niv, Aetherling and the Elspeth's should be plenty as far as heavy hitting finishers go. And really Keranos' abilities are amazing in this deck, getting him to be a creature would just be gravy. You obviously have some money to put into the mana base to truly optimize this deck and I know that pain just as much as the next guy, I hate spending 10 bucks on a land when I can buy a bunch of other cards that actually do things for my decks for that money, but if you want this deck to stay top tier for you it needs that boost.

One other comment as far as optimizations go, Control decks, especially 3 color ones, need to hit their land drops. I wonder if there is room for more draw cards in this deck. Like would Divination (not a great card I know but still worth a look) be worth more to you than Magma Jet? Making sure you get to four plus land seems more important than killing some small creature that you could wipe off the board later. I think it is worth looking at. There is a pro player named Ivan Floch who won worlds during this standard using a W/U control deck that was similar in construction and play style to this deck that ran Divination, Sphinx's Rev, and a bunch of board wipes (he even played Planar Cleansing). I'm not saying you should drop red or anything like that I rather like the red inclusion. But maybe some more draw spells would be of more value than something like Magma Jet, Banishing Light, or even the second Ral.

Here is a link to the deck I referenced. I will literally hate anyone forever if they make this deck but it does seem like a total Boyf/Mike deck. It has no win condition really, it just literally prevents your opponent from doing what they want to do until they quit or deck themselves. But I like it as a good reference for control deck construction. It made me really like the card Quicken that I've talked about adding to some of my other decks.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1209374

-Bill

I'm not sure what Signal Pest should replace, but the two tokens from Gather that benefit from Battlecry and Honor effects for two mana are PRETTY good too. I think I would just take out the Mastiffs and put in the Pests. -Boyf

I think you might be right about Signal Pest. I think I would swap them for Gather the Townsfolk. Or what else?

And if I do that, then yeah the Mastiff has more things to take advantage of and beats out the Lawkeeper.

As for vulnerability to removal, I don't feel like there's a way around that within the identity of the deck. Doomed Traveler and multiple Honor of the Pure are really my only means of mitigation, and they're meager at best.

I might be able to optimize my chances by playing differently, but I'm not sure. I think I'd rather try that and maximize my quick hit potential than try for some mediocre responses. Timely Reinforcements is a good card for this, but I'm not sure I can make room for it. Entreat the Angels is an option in theory, but it's really not friendly to my curve. Maybe cheap pump instants would do the trick, but for now I consider that a possible adjustment more than plan A.

But I'm not certain about any of this.

I like the new list, I can definitely see some really great turn sequences. Not being critical but just thinking of how this deck could be vulnerable and am wondering if you would be able to bounce back from an early sweeper. That's the drawback of any weenie deck but just something to consider. You are also looking at a lot of creatures that die to cheap red removal (Shock, Magma Jet, Magma Spray, etc) even with an Honor on board. Is being disrupted that way early enough to throw off the game plan? I'd like to see how fast the deck can be and it could definitely punish decks that start slow.

E

Just kidding, Mastiff is way better. But actually, I didn't address this earlier, but I think you're underestimating Signal Pest. If you want to go aggressive all the way, it's a great card. -Boyf

I think you might be right. Plus, Lawkeeper is great for the Emrakul lulz.

-Mike

The Warclamp Mastiff is the only change I don't like, because it's just a weak card and is only good with help, but I'm not entirely sure what would be better. I know that's not helpful, but maybe consider keeping the Lawkeeper? He's able to get some attacks through whatever defenses the opponent tries to play with, and is only missing first strike when you compare stats. I can't help but feel like the added versatility and the ability to prevent the opponent stabilizing with one 4/4 creature makes it better. -Boyf

I'm considering the following changes, reflected above:

-1 Plains
-4 Gideon's Lawkeeper
-4 Intangible Virtue
-4 Fiend Hunter
-4 Midnight Haunting
-4 Angel of Jubilation

+2 Elite Vanguard
+4 Warclamp Mastiff
+3 Accorder Paladin
+4 Porcelain Legionnaire
+4 Spectral Rider
+4 Silverblade Paladin

I wanted the deck to get smaller and faster. With this list, no card costs more than 3 and I don't need extra mana for things like the Lawkeeper.

I sacrificed the control elements, Fiend Hunter and Lawkeeper, because I think this deck only wins when it aggros well. Instead I added things like the Legionnaire (which is effectively a 2-drop) and Spectral Rider (which has good evasion). I also think the Silverblade Paladin can have as much effect as the Angel while costing one less. Accorder Paladin always seemed like it should be in the deck, but I hated that he could get chump blocked and killed too easily. The Silverblade makes him ridiculous. The Legionnaire and Rider are nice soulbonders, too.

To accommodate these changes, I also moved away from the token focus, and thus, Intangible Virtue. Midnight Haunting was a casualty of the curve. On the flipside, Warclamp Mastiff helps lighten the curve, and with first strike he's likelier to survive combat once my pumpers are active. Signal Pest was a strong consideration, but I dislike its incompatibility with Honor of the Pure and Guardians' Pledge.

Advice?

I don't disagree with any of your comments, but I think it's going to be a matter of tweaking and tuning the energy creation vs. the energy using cards. I want to see how it plays out. For example, Architect of the Untamed doesn't make energy, but I THINK I'll have enough cards that do. But we'll have to see. -Boyf

I love the energy build. Bristling Hydra is a great creature and if your producing energy like you should it will be super annoying for your opponents. The deck just has so much going for it.

There are a few minor things I would consider.

1. Unless you have other plans for them I would leave in the Verdurous Gearhulk. I know they aren't energy related but in a creature based deck and a Pan out the results could be bonkers.

2. Architect of the untamed is a great card for the token it creates but the energy it makes isn't doubled by Pan because the land won't trigger Pan. I would consider Decoction module, creates energy every time you cast a creature and you could return a creature to protect or just to cast it again if needed.

3. Less likely but I still wanna mention is Aethertorch Renegade. The 6 damage to the face isn't as good as creating a 6/6 beast but it creates 4 energy immediately and makes enough to do its ability if you have Pan out.

All in all though I really really like your energy list. Should be pretty good.

-Bill

So since you are in red, what about 2 x Combustible Gearhulk? With PH out that is either drawing six, or flipping six for damage, which would usually net you at least 8-10. Doesn't synergize with the energy cards, but would just be a really strong finisher (and its like $2.)

Fitting in with the energy theme, both Glassblowers and Woodweavers puzzle knot go apeshit with the PH.

Other energy cards I like: Dynavolt Tower, Aethersquall Ancient, Aethertorch Renegade (more ways to use all the energy you produce), and Shielded Aetherthied (you like to draw cards right?).

Just throwing ideas out to see if any stick.

E

You're probably right, Eric. However, I liked Bill talking about Rogue Refiner + Panharmonicon so much that I turned it into an energy list I like a lot (see sideboard. I'd love some thoughts on that, since it would be a real cheap change to make money-wise. -Boyf

How often can you hit Bring to Light for four or more? It seems like you have plenty of ways to do it, but I'm also wondering if there is a more effective way to tutor up whatever piece of your toolbox you need, freeing up some card slots. In the list as it exists, does Cataclysmic Gearhulk work out for you? It doesnt synergize with Panharmonicon, seems like another Noxious would be the way to go. Just my two cents.

E