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My goal is to advance new and experienced players thinking of the game by showing the correlation between economic principals and the game of magic. the game of magic is a game of managing resources and utilizing your out puts and inputs efficently.
the concept of diminishing returns, to keep it very simple, is how much are you getting out for what your putting in. this is about production theory. i also hope to show the weakness of some beliefs that some new players (myself included at the time) hold about different values. all forms of effectiveness and efficiency are measured against time and units of a specific resource already produced and how much is being consumed. time being turns in this case. we will go over life gain, card draw.the first thing you have to understand is what a resources is. A resource is something that allows you to advance your board state. a resource is fuel to help you win. So life is a resource for all of those cards that say pay life do blah. land is a resource because it allows you to produce game winning factors. resources can beget more resources you use lands for mana that allow you to cast card draw spells or paying life for card (or mana) or mana for turns is another example of resources used for more resources. second thing to understand. resources dont win games. i know i know its very counter to what you've heard but lands, card draw, gaining life, destroying stuff. that doesnt win you games. killing your opponent wins you the game.the third thing you need to understand is that no resource has fixed value. it depends on the decks strategy, the boardstate, and how much of resource are you using, how much are you producing, and how much you have.this is a very complicated idea. it comes to valuing cards at different stages of the game and deck building. when your deck building the law of diminshing returns comes in when your talking about how much of any type of resource do you need for you to win the game at any given strategy. so aggro values life very little and individual cards highly. the amount of gas you need to get out of any individual card depends on how much card draw you have. thats why you see some control players wrath the board when there is only one creature in play. if they have a million cards in hand they dont need any individual card to accomplish much. Alot of new players value life gain wrongly. its not unimportant. it can be extremely important and turn the tides in your favor. recently with sphinx's reveliation we see this card ending games and the life gain is extremely relevant piece of that. but it needs to be measured under the right circumstances.life points value increases proportionally the less of them you have. people say that only the last life matters and thats true but its an over simplification. take for example you have 100 life. each point of damage you take means very little and you are willing to exchange blows because your opponents life points mean much more then yours because he has much fewer of them to spare. so life gain in that kind of race is very significant to him and very little for you. if you have 100 life and he has 20 what you want is damage dealing cards not more life because having more life doesnt win you the game( most of the time). card draw is extremely valuable and most of the time underrated by new players and over valued by more experienced players. card draw makes every card in your hand worth less the more you have. if you have 20 cards in hand and you draw a draw spell that means very little. if you have one card in hand and draw a draw spell it means alot. for each card in your hand above zero is worth less for each consecutive card drawn. so in points we have card 1 being worth 10 points card 2 being worth 9 card 3 being worth 8 and so on until you reach the point where it becomes negative value. its detrimental to draw additional cards because casting a spell consumes a finite resource. whether that be lands or the amount of cards in deck. card draw does not win you the game (most of the time) the cards you draw that arent card draw do.
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Interesting way of thinking about it. This would help change the way newer players perceive the game, but I don't know how helpful it is for more advanced players.
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As one who is still relatively new to magic (only a year under the belt) this has definitely brought about some new thinking into my deck construction. Point being: extremely valuable to new players
I want this to the Hot Page now.This "deck" needs some attention. I surely know how important it is to make newbies hold onto this game, and teach them NOT to let go. We need people like you to inspire newbies. We need people like you to help newbies find the deck type they will keep playing forever. We need people like you to show that THIS COMMUNITY ROCKS.An awesome idea in one single deck. Reminds me of a "deck" I created not too long ago.*chuckles*Gonna hit that +1 like button bro. Gonna hit it damn hard. Also gonna copypaste this deck's link to all my dearest friends.*brofist*Keep going bro. YOU rock.
Has my vote :)Though I don't agree with all of it...and some of it is obvious (maybe not to noobs, though...which is the point of teaching them). I think we need to discuss tempo. For me, that is the most important aspect of Magic.
Agreed. Tempo is such a hard to learn aspect of the game, especially depending on what format you play out the meta game in your area
I think it is much under appreciated and studied. Truth (at least for me):If you can gain and hold tempo advantage the entire game then you have a great chance at winning the game. No pulling your leg, if you maintain tempo advantage the entire game I would wager you have a 75 percent change of winning. Regardless of your hand. Regardless of your life. Regardless of your mana. Regardless of drawing cards. That is why I love Bounce so damn much. Bounce is a case study of how Tempo works. When looking at Tempo...consider cards like Acidic Slime. You play your Acidic Slime and instantly kill one of their creatures/lands/artifacts. You are +1 in tempo. Or 1 for 1. You played 1 card to remove 1 of their cards. Fair. Your opponent attacks with a creature and you block with your Acidic Slime (with deathtouch), and opponent's creature dies. You are +2 in tempo. Or 2 for 1. You played 1 card to remove 2 of their cards. Very nice! You do stuff like that for an entire game...and you have a great chance at winning, regardless of your opponent's game plan. Or Bounce. You play Wash Out on your opponent's green/red deck. You play 1 Wash Out card and you remove 3 of your opponent's green cards in play. You are +3 in tempo. You played 1 card to remove 3 of their cards. Great! Tempo is more important than life gain, card draw, mana ramp, removal, etc. Look at it like this...in simple terms...if your opponent is playing the entire game trying to catch up to you, then you are doing stuff right! If they are too busy to go on the offensive, then you are doing stuff right. If your opponent is trying to answer to you, instead of you having to answer to his threats, then you are doing stuff right.
bounce is great, but can be more tricky to pull off on a consistent basis, as most bounce spells are either an expensive creature, or a non permanent that doesn't put anything on your side of the board. usually. (with the exception of a few decks that I have seen on here...)
Ah and that's where it gets interesting. Bounce comes in many different shapes and sizes, but the best ones often cost lots of mana. Enter Battlefield Thaumaturge. So long as you are targeting creatures, all your bounce spells are suddenly much cheaper! And I am suddenly struck by inspiration, so I will go make a bounce deck that uses him and a nice little trick to bounce not just creatures, but land too ;)
can't wait to see it. :)
Bam! Let me know what you all think! http://www.mtgvault.com/drakeraenes/decks/boing-boing/
I like it. :) left a comment.
Amazing prospect bro! This has definitely helped me to advance as a player just reading these ideas and definitely taking them into consideration for matches in the future. I'm still learning to build decks and with the help of my cousin making great strides in playing and matches working on meta and learning ins and outs of the game. (He used to play protour.) Anyways thank you for this advice and helping out the community. +1 from me!
+1 like!
Please make more of these on other aspects of the game. I'd love to read them!
This is very informative and I learned a lot. Thank you! (but what about maximum hand size...)+1 like
well I think that, as stated, there comes a point where you are at a disadvantage by drawing so much, and hitting that 8 card limit is that point. usually.
1 of the biggest lessons noobs need is to learn about the mana curve. like how you don't want a deck full of 5+ drops u want to be able to do something on every turn. w/o mana ramp id never put a 6 + card into any deck unless you are cheating it into play (reanimate, show and tell, etc)
Agreed. The curve is a pivotal aspect to deck building
i think 6+ drops have their place in control decks. Seriously aetherling showed us all how that works.
Yeah but they only run one or two of him. The rest is straight control
I have to admit though that there are some decks that break that rule into tiny pieces.
"1 of the biggest lessons noobs need is to learn about the mana curve. like how you don't want a deck full of 5+ drops u want to be able to do something on every turn. w/o mana ramp id never put a 6 + card into any deck unless you are cheating it into play (reanimate, show and tell, etc) " Hey drakeraenes remind you of anyone? Lol
He has plenty of mana ramp AND ways to cheat his dragons into play. How does that apply again? Go troll someone else dork
Will agree Vaan, mana curve/occurrence is very important. And one of the reasons why I love mtgvault so much. It shows mana curve/occurrence for you!
when I first started playing, I had a very... unusual outlook on life gain.I HATED white, because of life gain, and thought that it was too hard to defeat, but never enough to actually win a game by itself. because it doesn't actually hurt your opponents position.I like this "Deck", because as Northern stated, it clearly and simply states how a match should be thought of, and how to improve a) deck building based on knowledge of the game, and b) how to be a better player, also based on that knowledge.this gets a +1 from me. :)
I hated and still hate rakdos. I wish my friends had some of this information when I 1st started playing.
Rakdos all the way! Lol
I will leave a path of destroyed rakdos personnel in my wake. It's been 3+/- years.
Lol yeah except my Rakdos worship Mogis. It's a total bloodbath with them rofl
I'm fine with splash and R/B/x+x. Straight up rakdos? Nope. I thought your mogis was still on vacation?.
Lol he was, but there aren't any tourists left to gank on ravnica, so he is chilling out back on theros
When my Rakdos deck was in standard, it was one of the best deck that I'd ever built. It even went 3-3 against a pro's modern burn deck. I won almost every game with it and it was terrific. Kazzong, I also share your pain with versing life gaining decks. They're what made me play infect since I couldn't get rid of their life fast enough. Now my brother calls me a coward and a pussy for "not using a 'real' deck". He can just fuck off.
To be honest, this all seems rather obvious to me, and I suppose it is to most experienced players. But I bet this is useful for beginners, or even more experienced players who want a more analytical look on deck-building (because that's what this article is about).I'd like to see more info on the psychological part, though. Bluffing, overbluffing, intimidating,... Winning because your opponent is too scared to act because of that one card you keep holding onto... which ends up being a basic land. Building decks your meta never expects to keep them on edge, pushing your opponents into a strategy yoù want them to use, keeping you in control. Knowing how your opponent will react to a certain card or tactic, and using that reaction against him/her. That stuff's not only brilliant, it also wins you games!Basically, reading Sun Tzu is a very useful thought. Noobs: do that! :-)
intangibles and mind games are the best about Magic I think.
I agree. Bluffing has won me many a game, especially when you do reverse bluffing and make your opponent think you have nothing, then just combo into something crazy and suddenly win
Having already read Sun Tzu BEFORE I started playing (and being ridiculously broke when I did) scare tactics and good strategy basically made my starting group consider me a God. Doubly funny because we started when Theros was released and I was the first to own a God: Thassa
If you are honest, most of what Sun Tzu has to say is obvious, too.It's just that the average person is lazy with his brain and tends to get stuck in common thinking patterns, sometimes so much that he can't see the obvious. Also, regarding Sun Tzu, he was talking strategy for military operations, and ... well, let's put it this way: The average general (or any other military leader) of that time or even many hundred years later were completely incompetent! Let's see:* Guys that became military leaders by inheritage (just because you are born royal doesn't mean you know anything about strategy). * Guys that became military leaders because of their position (for example if you were a consul in ancient Rome, you got your own legion, no matter if you've ever seen a battlefield)* Guys that had enough money or power to field troops and then took over leadership because that's how they roll.Add to that the typical ego that that is usually attached to people like that and their tendency to not accept any advice or criticism and you get pretty laughable generals. Okay, some of that applies to Magic players as well, so ... go ahead and read Sun Tzu :)
I'm a newbie. I latched onto life gain and control. Control because I saw it as a defense mechanic. Life gain because I saw its potential to be a weapon. I can take a Ajani Pridemate and turn him into a juggernaut. Or launch life bombs that blow up my opponent while boasting my life. Or I can flood the board with tokens. It has been effective in games I've played thus far (I've gone 14-2). I even built my deck to have mana ramp. But am I doing it right? I have no idea. I've played people who have lots of experience, but no tournament like players. So I don't know. I like the game though! Always learning.
Control is one of the hardest playstyles to get right. Especially when you're just beginning. Life gain can be the same, but they all follow the same protocols so if you can find some tourney players and ask for some advice on them, then that would boost your playing in a way
wow, you guys are awesome. it means alot that you guys took the time to read and like my article. I made another strategy deck list that might help some people out. i hope you guys enjoy it.http://www.mtgvault.com/bakaburger1/decks/econ-mtg-oppurtunity-cost/
i like what your doing, even if people know these facts, its always helpful to hear them in someone elses words.On another note, please go through your descriptions and add many much needed commas lol
lol and the grammar nazis have arrived. it bugged me too mobbs
hahah i read the first sentence 3 times before i understood it. No offense burger!
lol no worries, im definitley not a skilled writer
But you ARE a skilled economist
For some strange reason I am more confused than enlightened. Maybe I'm just overly exhausted.
probably. what time is it?
Currently 6:15 pm my time. Got to sleep around midnight and was up by 3:30 am for work.
yeah... then you are probably in need of some sleep my friend.
I'll still probably be up for a few more hours though.
Welcome to the modern era, where we work ourselves to death
People have literally worked themselves to death in about any era. WWII? Poeple died in concentration camps/gulags. Industrialization era? People worked 14+ hour shifts under inhuman circumstances without any safety issues in place. Medieval ages? Peasants broke their back to be able to feed themselves and pay their tithes in serfdom. It doesn't matter where and when you look back, there have always been slaves or forms close to it. And compared to that we can still consider ourselves lucky.
Wasn't trying to get into the nitty gritty of it, but I do agree. I just say the modern era because it's the one in which we all live
What makes us work longer hours, in the USA, compared to our parents is the rise of technology.Back in the day they had phones. People worked 9 to 5 jobs. Clocked out, and for the most part and for the majority of the people, that was the end of the work day.Now we have tablets, iphones, computers, fax, etc etc...and some jobs require that you take your home with you. But yeah, people have always worked themselves to death.
I am not sure if this really helps new players. While what has been said is true, it also is confusing more than it actually clears up, I guess. And that's mostly due to the nature of the game and all those exceptions. Let's examine some of these and give examples for everything (I think examples are the only way to illustrate):RESOURCES WIN THE GAME VSKILLING THE OPPONENT WINS THE GAMEActually both are true. Forget for a while that you can win without killing your opponent (Test of Endurance for exqample). Yes, it doesn't help you amassing 200 life and 20 cards in hand if your opponent is still alive and about to deal the last poison counter to you. However, the more resources you amass, the easier it will become for you to actually kill your opponent. The reason why experienced players say "resources win the game" is because if you waste your resources, you will be very unlikely to kill anybody. Of course, resources alone won't kill but they are needed in order to kill. What's the typical newbie's stance towards this? Newbies typically go straight for the opponent's throat and neglect building up resources, both in deckbuilding and actual gameplay. This might work out okay for some forms of pure aggro but even those have to convserve their resources. EXAMPLES:* Throwing a Giant Growth on an unblocked creature just to do more damage: If that kills the opponent right there, do it of course. But if not, you are wasting resources. Wait for your opponent trying to kill or block it dead and then GG it ... you will gain card advantage and keep your critter which will translate into more damage in the long run, exceeding those extra 3 that you would have done otherwise.* Using your Lighting Bolt to burn the opponent's face right away instead of killing off a creature. Removing potential blockers clears the path for your attackers and therefore translates into damage, too. Killing of something like an Llanowar Elf on the first or second turn will also slow the opponent down. Especially the latter is a war on resources that will often times ultimately translate into a kill that you would not have achieved otherwise.However, there will be situations where it's the other way around. Assume the same as above but your opponent is a deck with removal and counterspells instead of blocking creatures. Your opponent has tapped out and you are attacking, unblocked.* Now you DO want to Giant Growth the creatures because you won't need to save them for creature combat and you will not get many opportunities to play them. So do it NOW when you have that opportunity.* Same is true for your burn: Use it in a batch when the opponent is tapped out. You won't need it to burn creatures anyway. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------RESOURCESVSIMPACTWhen talking about resources and making these decisions it basically comes down to this: - SHORT TERM effects Vs LONG TERM effects- BUILDING UP (resources) Vs IMMEDIATE IMPACT on the BOARD POSITIONHere the granddaddy of all examples to understand this:* You and your opponent had a lengthy creature battle. You have no creature left, the opponent has a 5/5. You now draw and cast a Hero's Reunion. This spell is efficient, you traded 1 card and 2 mana for 7 life. However, it doesn't have any impact on the board! You are still left without blockers and that 5/5 will still damage you every turn. So, the Hero's Reunion barely bought you one more turn to draw a card that remedies your situation. A removal spell or potential blocker would indirectly have saved you more life!Again, this can be reversed depending on the situation, decks and dozens of other factors. For example if it's only 2 damage you get every turn, then that Hero's Reunion would have bought you at least 3 more turns. But generally you are better off running more spells that actually change board position than those that don't. However, this doesn't mean those cards without immedediate impact are bad in nature. You can easily see why if you take a card drawer: * If you play a Concentrate instead of a Hero's Reunion, you'll draw 3 cards. And obviously the solution to your problem can be among those cards. Now it depends on the mana you have available - can you still cast that solution after spending 4 mana on concentrate? Chances are you can't, so you have to wait another turn. On the other hand, among those three cards might be more mana, another resource by the way, which will allow you to do so in the future, if you survive, that is.Then there are cards like Preferred Selection. This one doesn't impact board position at all. But it will improve the quality of your future draws. This is something very hard to judge - and usually it is not worth the trouble when going 1-on-1 against straight built decks. But the longer a game actually goes, the better this card will be.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Generally put, you always have to balance between short term impact and long term impact. Basically there are three categories:SUICIDE STYLE:Doesn't invest in the future, only wants immediate impact on the board, aims for short games. Typcially aggro and combo.BALANCED STYLE:Has a mix of cards that invest and cards that impact early, but nothig outrageous in either direction. Has tools for any length of games but usually wins midgame. Most flexibility. Typically aggro-control, slower combo or any kind of mid-ranged deck.ECOWHORE STYLE:It is all about building up resources and investing long-term, will typically on the brink of losing when it's engines start to kick in. Aims for longer games. Typically control or lockdown decks, EDH.Suicide's aim is to outrun any opponent before his resource buildup kicks in, the Ecowhore tries to od the opposite: Accumulate your resources first and then take control over game before you die. Balanced tries to do either depending on the opponent. This *typically* leads to a rock-paper-scissors scenario:SUICIDE beats ECOWHOREECOWHORE beats BALANCEDBALANCED beats SUICIDEThis is only an overall tendency, though, and might be different for each format. Also, that formula applies mostly to 1-on-1 games. Most multiplayer formats favor the Ecowhores and crush the Suiciders.EDIT:By the way, I don't think this is any more useful for newbies than what the article says, just additional rambling. Nothing you can ever read will be able to replace actual experiences you make throughout real games. The article and my comment are just there to hint what you have to look for.
I think this is very nice information, Puschkin. Good stuff. Especially with the given examples. Perhaps you need to reconsider that teaching degree. With that said...and to put my two cents worth into the pot...I wish I were better at making the Suicide/Aggro decks. I think, to a certain point, what you begin playing Magic with...and what you have early success with will dictate what types of decks you lean toward in the future. Example. Your first two or three decks are aggro decks. You lose with them. Can't seem to make them work. From that point on...you may shy away from trying those decks. Especially if you go from losing with aggro decks to winning with ecowhore style decks, you may shy away from trying to make aggro decks. Example. Your first two or three decks are midrange decks. You have great success with them. You love and win with them. From that point on...it may be hard to change your state of mind when trying to go back and make an aggro/suicide deck. Tendencies toward saftey/control cards keep popping up in the decks you want to be aggro. I have troubles with that. When making an aggro deck I still find myself trying to fit something like a Naturalize somewhere in the deck. In my case...my first deck was a huge creature timmy deck. I lost over and over with it. My second deck...my first "true" deck was a Blue Control deck. I beat butts with it. 14 years later I still prefer Blue decks and Control decks. And I suck at making Timmy decks. Same with Black mana decks. I was the worst at making them 14 years ago...and still, to this day, I can not make a good black deck. Speaking of Timmy decks. I think this would be a great place to mention Timmy, Johnny, Spike deck builders...if anyone has the time to go into details about them.
And sometimes it goes the other way around: You lose but it's not your own deck you begin to hate, it's the opponent's deck that strikes awe in you! How did I lose so fast despite having lots of defense? How can he pull off his combo so consistently even after 5 games? How does he manage to always always ALWAYS have the rights answer to whatever I play? Then you are hunting down decklists and try to play yourself what has beaten your ass.And sometimes, when playing your enemies' deck, you learn how it works from the other side. And that in turn may give you hints at what you did wrong back then when you lost. And sometimes you go back to your old style, refine it and mold it into a deadlier weapon because now you know your enemy.
Very much agreed. Be best friends with your enemy. Absolutely. If you suck at making a black deck...play against a great player with a black deck. Clone it. Proxy it. Learn to see how he was so successful. It will make you better at building black decks PLUS enable you to better prepare against the black deck.
http://alwayzturntup.com/videos/player/funny/hilarious-the-greatest-goalie-of-all-time
Can someone summarize what all of those really long comments just said plz?
No. If it was that easy, then there would only be experts.
KJSJ3. I love that video. The group that made it is super funny. :)Although I am curious though... Why post it here? :)
Something funny to ease the stress of figuring this all out.
Right on. :). I am surprised that video has gotten as big as it has in such a short amount of time. It is easily their most successful skit. :)They do have some other good ones too. The Shoulder Angel skit is pretty funny.
http://www.mtgvault.com/ironmoose/decks/temur-counterbrun-otk/
Don't just post a link to your deck. At least give your two cents about what you are commenting on first
I put off commenting on this for a long time, because honestly...I didn't know what to say. I still don't really. I'm very happy to see this on the hot page though. I hope this deck can fill with more and more insights from various experienced players about the more intangible aspects of this game. I think it is important to start a new player with the basics and just say "play lands, use mana, play cards, get the opponent to 0 before he gets you to 0", but I think it's also important to show how much deeper the game can go than that. I think you would make an outstanding Extraction player to be perfectly honest. You understand the value of cards and how their value can change and be manipulated throughout the game...in some ways you describe mana burden. Also you said one of the most important lessons for a new player to learn -- Card draw, lands, etc. don't win the game, defeating the opponent does. It's such a simple sounding idea that has huge implications. I need to think more on what else I want to say/add/contribute to this deck, because I want what I say or add to be just right. But damn...I'm happy to see something like this.
im happy that you enjoyed the "deck". i hope to put out more of these types to help players advance their skills. Also i am looking forward to seeing what contributions you can make. http://www.mtgvault.com/bakaburger1/decks/econ-mtg-oppurtunity-cost/this is an another article that i have posted with a similar idea of helping new players. i would be interested in seeing what you think. also any advice or suggestions would be welcome.
I wish that I could do a good extraction deck. Seems pretty complex though.
Don't take it lightly when surewhynot says that you are an "outstanding" Extraction player. He is probably the best Extraction player on here. It sucks, as he will tell you, that most extraction decks are pricey. I failed at making one...a few months back.http://www.mtgvault.com/jessie/decks/100th-deck-combo-destroyer/Stuff like Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, Bitter Ordeal are brutal.I tried to mill my opponent with stuff like Tome Scour and Mind Sculpt...then extract the stuff with the Extirpate/Extraction/Ordeal cards. With all the shuffling I put in Cosi's Trickster. Anyways, yeah, take surewhynot's compliments as a job well done.
thank you i do.
2 reasons why I don't play extraction. 1. I don't have money (...)2. My friends (who don't like playing with me in the 1st place) would probably never play against me again. 2 reasons why I want to play extraction. 1. I like extraction. 2. There are some unsportsmanlike, inconsiderate, on a high horse a$$ holes at my local shop who need to be brought down and tortured. Hopefully it will be a wake up call. On another note, Baka, where were you when I needed this 3 years ago?
Going to build a budget extraction soon, KJSJS. As soon as I get the chance. Going to try and keep it between 25 and 50 bucks. Something like this:Turn 1. Island. Tome Scour (5 cards in graveyard)Turn 2. Swamp. Mind Sculpt (12 cards total in graveyard)Turn 3. Island. Dark Ritual. Haunting Echoes (search for all copies of the 12 cards in library, and remove them from game).Good game.
I actually posted a budget extraction deck a while ago as well as a mill/extract deck somewhere on my profile. I'm still trying to get the cards for this one.http://www.mtgvault.com/kjsj3/decks/modern-budget-isoseek/
Just commented on it. And cancel that deck idea of mine, dozens of people have them out. Extraction decks...sadly...are just one of those decks where you have to throw money at them.I mean, I seen several decent budget extraction decks out there...but most of them are lacking when compared to their expensive counterparts.
It's the sad truth about extraction. Any extraction deck worth its salt will cost you an arm and a leg...
"the concept of diminishing returns, to keep it very simple, is how much are you getting out for what your putting in. "Well, then, speaking of financial cost...getting out what you put in: Maybe we can bring this topic up to beginners:What decks are cheaper to build, that can be competitive? Or another question for the beginners:If I like to play burn, what prices am I looking at versus if I like to play control? What tribes are more expensive and what themes are more expensive. Or even one more:How much money do you have available and willing to invest?And from that point decide what deck type to go with. Maybe someone could throw down here, a list, of the Top 10 Cheapest deck types that can be competitive. I am thinking, while not extremely competitive, Burn decks are toward the cheaper side (minus stuff like Goblin Guides).When you start talking about, "Is 800 dollars acceptable for a Modern deck?" and "Is 2000 dollars acceptable for a Legacy deck?" it scares people off. When truth be told, you can make a 20 LLC deck or a 20 Bounce, that is fun to play and wins you games. I think this is why Budget decks are so popular on here. "Let me make a 20 to 30 dollar deck, cheap to make, that can win half of it's battles at the casual playing table."
And that's where I think many players make a mistake. They just look at the price of a deck but don't evaluate the longivity of those cards. See, you can buy a deck for 30 dollars and call it a day but if the deck consists of cards that are too specific then you don't really build up a collection because you will not be able to use them in the future outside of that deck. Most tribal decks are like that. A bunch of creatures that buff each other but rarely work with something else. But if your deck contains lots of cards that are generally useful, then you are really building up a collection you can work with. I'd rather spend 50 dollars on a deck with cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Phyrexian Metamorph, Incendiary Command, Mother of Runes and Spell Crumple than 30 dollars on a Ally deck where most cards can't stand on their own.That's also the reason why you should not dodge buying dual lands for too long. It doesn't matter if it's fecthlands, shocklands or whatever, once you've got them, they will always be useful for you.The other thing, of course, is the value. Will the cards keep it? Of course that's hard to say, but there are some rules of thumb. Most importantly, how old are they? Most cards that are still Type II legal will go down once they rotate out of Standard. I'd rather buy a 500 dollar Legacy deck than a 300 dollar Standard deck because I know the former well keep it's value.Also, there are a lot of cards that aren't really worth their price. Many cards only have a nominal value, 50 cent here and 90 cent there, but that's just a price dealers slap on them arbitrarily. If you try to sell it yourself you will never going to get your money back, you might not even find a buyer for 10 cent. MANY cards are of this nature. Staple cards, however, are always in high demand. A Qasali Pridemage may not be expensive either but has a *true* value of about 1 dollar. It's listed as 1.50 but it is so widely used and in demand that if you go down to 1 dollar, then it won't take you long to find a buyer. Only THEN a card has a true value. Your Kavu Monarch, however, may be listed as 40 cent but even if you go down to 10 you will probably never find a buyer.
Example of what Puschkin is saying.Goblin Lackey, in a Goblin Deck can not be beaten! But he is only around 7 dollars.Goblin Guide, in a Goblin Deck he is a great card...not as good as a Goblin Lackey (with Siege/Krenko/Instigator) in a pure Goblin deck. But he is around 20 bucks.Why is Lackey 7 dollars even though he is better in a Goblin deck? Why is Goblin Guide 20 dollars? Even though he can't pop out a 2nd turn Siege or Krenko? Because you can put Goblin Guide in ANY red deck and he rocks.If you take Lackey and put him in a non-goblin deck, he would suck! And right on with some cards are staples. If you are going to invest in cards, buy cards like Daze and Mother of Runes. They will always hold their value. And spot on, again, on why Standard sucks so damn hard. Who wants to buy a 300 dollar deck to see it rotate out and become a 80 dollar deck? Lame. Who wants to buy a 300 dollar computer to see it magically become a 80 dollar cd player one year from now? You want to keep your damn computer, don't you?!
"And that's where I think many players make a mistake. They just look at the price of a deck but don't evaluate the longivity of those cards.See, you can buy a deck for 30 dollars and call it a day but if the deck consists of cards that are too specific then you don't really build up a collection because you will not be able to use them in the future outside of that deck. Most tribal decks are like that. A bunch of creatures that buff each other but rarely work with something else.But if your deck contains lots of cards that are generally useful, then you are really building up a collection you can work with. I'd rather spend 50 dollars on a deck with cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Phyrexian Metamorph, Incendiary Command, Mother of Runes and Spell Crumple than 30 dollars on a Ally deck where most cards can't stand on their own.That's also the reason why you should not dodge buying dual lands for too long. It doesn't matter if it's fecthlands, shocklands or whatever, once you've got them, they will always be useful for you.The other thing, of course, is the value. Will the cards keep it? Of course that's hard to say, but there are some rules of thumb. Most importantly, how old are they? Most cards that are still Type II legal will go down once they rotate out of Standard. I'd rather buy a 500 dollar Legacy deck than a 300 dollar Standard deck because I know the former well keep it's value.Also, there are a lot of cards that aren't really worth their price. Many cards only have a nominal value, 50 cent here and 90 cent there, but that's just a price dealers slap on them arbitrarily. If you try to sell it yourself you will never going to get your money back, you might not even find a buyer for 10 cent. MANY cards are of this nature. Staple cards, however, are always in high demand. A Qasali Pridemage may not be expensive either but has a *true* value of about 1 dollar. It's listed as 1.50 but it is so widely used and in demand that if you go down to 1 dollar, then it won't take you long to find a buyer. Only THEN a card has a true value. Your Kavu Monarch, however, may be listed as 40 cent but even if you go down to 10 you will probably never find a buyer."And that in a nutshell is why i refuse to play Standard.
So since we're on the subject, I want to talk a little more in depth about the importance of individual cards in any given deck. This example is based off a conversation I was having with my buddy Wumps' wife, Allie, about extraction. It also might just be one of the best descriptions of my thinking process when playing these decks that I've been able to come up with, so for those interested in that part of it too, read on =]Allie was watching me play a game against one of the other players in our group, who was playing a Reanimator deck. When I extirpated his Entombs she asked me why I chose, over any of the other cards available, to hit the Entombs. I said that at the point we were in the match, he needed options, and my best way to limit his options was to take away Entomb. Since her response was "okay...", I went on further and said "Alright, let me ask you this, what does Entomb do?" She began to read out loud Entomb's description. I stopped her and said, "No no, that's what Entomb SAYS. What does it DO? In Joe's deck it expands his options to his library, and then to his graveyard. He likely has a card or cards in his hand that, with Entomb's help, lower the 'cost' of multiple other cards significantly. Right now, it does a ton."I cannot stress how important it is for players, new and experienced to understand this difference between what it says on a card, and what a card actually does. Lightning Bolt says 'Deal 3 damage to target creature or player', but if you have an opponent at 3 or less life, or that opponent's only blocking creature is killed by the bolt to let you swing for the win, guess what? It might say 'Deal 3 damage' but what it DOES is win you the game. The most insignificant-seeming card can be, at any given moment for any given deck, worth its weight in gold. On the other hand, what might seem like the best card ever can sit in your hand all game long wasting space.I hope that all makes sense. It was a bit of a ramble and I'm way too tired to look it over right now. Either way, enjoy =]
Exactly true, this can easily be applied to what you Thoughtsieze out of someones hand on turn 1. Example be do you take out the high mana costing creature/sorcery which won't come into play for another 4 or so rounds. Or do you remove the Intangible Virtue which will come into play following turn. I for one will take the immediate threat and believe that is the proper play because of what it DOES now.
This is actually how every player and deckbuilder should think, not just Extraction players. The use and possible use of every card changes with every card you draw, every card that hits play and every card you and your opponent COULD draw.
Personally I really like what Bakaburger1 has done here, tried to help out the newer players of the game by making some really useful statements and helpful advise (even if obvious to some). Which then snowballed into some of the best advise I've read on this site made by some very experienced players who's opinions I personally have come to respect. So I give a +1 and props to Bakaburger for initiating this conversation.
thanks man, i appreciate it
Great deck, if you have a moment check out the last deck i made EDH one thanks
That moment when it's not a "deck ".
He spams that in about every thread.
I was only asking a few regulars that post alot a decks for some help on my deck is that too much to ask, i only asked a few people , i didnt spam on more then 6 and i also comment on there deck in a positive way
it is spam. all you did was say "great deck" and then ask for popularity. and because you asked on at least 6 different decks, then yes, you are spamming. if your deck is similar to the one you are commenting about, then its not such a big deal to leave it in a comment if you are pointing out how it is similar. but all you did was say two words about his deck, hence everyone's annoyance. you spammed, and we called you out on it. just deal with it.
also i noticed that a lot of your comments are spam for other decks you have done. you should really try other methods of getting your decks noticed. Witty names, odd or ingenious deck builds, i hear budget is super popular right now too. there is always a way to get a deck noticed. a few of mine have been popular simply because of the name, theme, or just what the deck did overall. see, right here is where you drop in the decks that you are talking about, and it might even get you a few new views and maybe even some comments on the decks you linked and maybe even a few you didnt. and you know what? its not spamming because im using them to make a point, not to get views and comments. ive been the top of the hot page a few times and while its nice, holy balls is it hard to keep up with replying to all the comments. im content with a few small comments from people like Gothy, NorthernWarlord, JacetheMindScupltor, Jessie, s0rinmark0v, and many of the other big names on here. i had my moment when i broke the hot page with my Gilder Bairn Kiora combo deck. im fine with the occasional passing comment here or there now, but do not spam, or else everyone on the site will hate you for it. its not a threat, its just how it is
#drakeforthewin lol.
Personally I would have to agree with drakeraenes on this subject. A great way to have a deck noticed is to search for similar decks then have a bit of a back and forth with the creator, then at that time drop the link. Simply going to a deck saying it's great and then expecting the knowledge of the mass's to parade it around is simply youthful thinking, to say the least. As far as I'm concerned half my decks should have made it to the Hot page along with many many others I've looked at with no more then 2 likes but bottom line that's not the point. It comes down to helping others, the simple act of helping someone else's deck build become stronger will inherently make you a better deck builder and get yours noticed more.
thanks KJSJ3. sorry i didnt mention you as one of the big names lolagreed MM. thats exactly what i was getting at. and it is about helping each other out. i take help i get on here seriously, because it helps make my decks and games more enjoyable with my friends when we all play
#ninja ,anyway, like they basically said, holding a conversation with others and helping each other out is a great way to not only share deck ideas and improvements, it builds your standing with others (gaining friends). Although it might annoy some, I'm perfectly fine with drake, Northy, kazzong and some others posting links on my stuff. And if there's a deck needing help that's not my Forte, I'll comment what I think and then post a link to a similar deck (mine or not).(Phone commenting is fun)Merry Christmas.
Sorry everyone for spaming on your decks, ive only trying to get advice and i guess i went the wrong way ! Didn't intend too. I try to think cool names oh well ill just post a deck and let it be
We apologize for harping at you, but remember, if everyone just went around comment spamming nothing would ever happen and eventually people would get tired and leave without looking back. We love the vault to much to let that happen. That's why it ticks us off.
indeed it is
No Worries dragon, I did happen to give a fairly in depth deck teck on your deck B/C hell, I'm kinda addicted to this shit anyway. :)
Just more proof that magic is addicting.
worse than crack i think. im always doing card research and trying to make myself better, plus help others
Dragon, the problem being that you want attention but don't pay attention yourself. Telling someone "great deck" even if it isn't a deck but an article is a giveaway that you didn't read at all and just dropped your link. One of the other decks you posted the same message was one of mine - if you recognize me as a regular, you should know that I have a special "deck" dedicated for help. If you need help, drop a line there.And while I can't speak for others, I for one prefer suggestions and constructive criticism over a "great deck" comment.Regarding Magic and crack - it is both better and worse. The addiction is as great but Magic helps improving your cognitive capacity while crack turns your brain into mush.
Say, is it fair to call a deck Aggro even if you're playing 22 creatures? I believe so but my brother doesn't and says you need more than 24 for it to be aggro... From what I see, all aggro decks need are to be really fast! What do you guys thinks? P.S. Newer players, don't be afraid to bend the rules of deck building: Think differently and come up with a new idea. This is what I base most of my deck building around and it works. Play around with interesting concepts and strategies as much as possible until you find your style. I work with unusual strategies (Like using Possibility Storm to get out the biggest creatures in the game for free + the 5 mana for Possibility Storm... OR making a deck based around 0/1 Goat tokens). Then I play with about 20 creatures in the deck and the rest is removal or strategy assist, where most people have 6 removal cards I will have 8-10 [at least] with about 22-24 lands
8 to 12 one drop creatures8 to 12 two drop creatures____________________________16-24 creatures totalSo, I think you are right.I think it is aggro if: You try to win the game by using a lot of very small creatures to produce constant damage to your opponent. And you are right for having so much removal.
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/academy/30A decent article about trying to build your first Aggro deck.Good luck noobs!
While the creatures are cheap, they are by no means "little" for what they are. Each creature is swinging for at least 2 damage individually with about 10 burn spells backing them up..... That was probably to make up for the fact that I only really play about 20 creatures
I agree. I think with aggro decks, most of your creatures, even if you pay just 1 mana for them, should be at least a 2/1 or even a 2/2. Example, Goblin Guide.
Or you can just run graveyard fun stuffs. T1 thrax into a t2 Aurelia. I'm personally not big on aggro decks, unless it's infect.
Here here for infect! Black green infect wrecks face!!!
Yes it does, as well as your chances of people willingly playing against you!!!
Lol I know that for a fact. My Golgari infect deck is pretty nasty and my friends hate it. It usually wins in the first few turns
I once used mine against a noob who lost on turn 2 and was like "What? How? Wha...?" I then had to take more time that the game went on for (shuffling included) to tell him how my deck beat him on the second turn. People would also openly admit to never wanting to verse my infect after I made it really good
Lol yeah. I love mine to death. It's such a beast in terms of sheer power it's in the middle of being reworked for competitive play though. My sideboard is what I'm working on at the moment
I have to agree in terms of power regarding infect. However I don't find it fun to play. I showed up to a pauper tourney that a local shop held for kicks. I went undefeated and wasn't very popular to say the least. :)
"Aggro", "control" and "combo" are not measured in the number of creatures at all! For example, you could have 28 creatures in your deck but if they are all walls, card drawer and removal, your deck is a crystal clear control deck. On the other hand, if your deck has 20 (small) creatures, 10 pump spells, 10 burn spells and 20 lands, it's a deck that couldn't be more aggro. AND while a deck may qualify for aggro, control etc. by design, the actual role it takes is determined by the matchup! For example if two aggrodecks face off against each other then the slower one might be forced to play controllish.
Somehow I think that I have combined aggro and control with my Rakdos deck. While it is fast, I still control when their creatures die (usually pretty quickly) and how the game flows which is usually me dominating the board
"For example if two aggrodecks face off against each other then the slower one might be forced to play controllish."For that reason, your deck may be better off (as Sorin points out) if your deck is a combination of the 3 types.
Sorin:Aggro-control is an archetype, too. It typically has removal (as you said) but also creatures with evasion and/or abilities that make them harder to kill (Soltari Priest for example). Running Mother of Runes instead of Savannah Lions in your White Weenie deck would also be an example for a shift from aggro to aggro-control.
Check out my deck splinta twin yo face with myrs