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Control deck that i have been brewing.
Updated. Still runs as a tap go style of control leaning more on the side of burn to take full advantage of grandmaster. mantis rider in main board adds alot of pressure and makes burn spells all the more powerful. MB is built to have a few targets for removal and then boarding into a more controlling game if need be. Have had lots of success vs aggro decks and den protector variants. have not had the pleasure of a control mirror yet, but i feel it matches up well as i can usually dig sooner due to burning faces. any suggestions im all ears
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If I were you, I'd have Dragonlord Ouj and a mixture of thunderbreak and icefall regent because then you can use draconic roar (little bits of damage might help to close it out when you need to!) un-conterable Dragonlord's prerogative and Silumgar's Scorn, which should give you the speed you need vs esper/abzan whilst keeping fundamentally control- great deck though! Vault needs more good standard decks like this
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thanks. yea mr ojutai is the only one i do not have yet. would be an excellent addition.
I think that you'll find that the combination of your sweepers is not ideal, and will get trapped in your hand. I would test with different combinations of spot removal/sweepers. Anger seems much better out of board, similar to Drown in Sorrow in black variants. The main disadvantage to playing these colors is efficiency; the black element is really lean, and lends itself to efficient ways to handle threats in ways that red doesn't. Your removal package, while potent, is perhaps slightly too clunky. Examine ways to make it more of a rip/slam/smile kind of deal. That brings me to my next point: I feel that the deck has a *slight* identity crisis. This is the larger issue which contributes to all of the aforementioned problems. Essentially, people seem to think at all control is the same. But in fact, building control is a balancing act. There are two main schools of thought regarding style: tap out style, and draw-go style. Choosing one over the other will make a more potent deck in general, and make it easier to build around a theme. Which do you prefer? I'd be happy to make recommendations after hearing about how you want this to play/feel. I hope that this didn't come across as erudite or bossy. Just trying to lend my experience to the build. Haha. Good luck brother!
i like the draw go style. mainly i have been trying to make a deck with the vault. the red white and blue color combo is my favorite. i was thinking about not using banishing lights and maybe add a roast or 2. maybe jeskai charms instead
I wouldn't run Perilous Vault and Banishing light in the same deck, especially when it's a control deck. You may accidentally do things to yourself. I'd put in maybe and ojutai, anger of the gods, end hostilities, or secure the wastes instead.
I'd actually keep the Vault over the other stuff, having watched Adrian Sullivan use it, it takes out Walkers, who are such an issue for decks like this
Oh sorry, i meant don't use both at the same time. just use one. I forgot to say that I would personally just use Perilous Vault. There are better 3-drops than Banishing light.
Ye agreed, maybe a mana less... with some dragons... quite a scornful card ;)
I have to recommend Skywise teachings.
Why? It is a pretty weak card?
90000 1/1 soldiers become 90000 3/2 soldiers for two turns. Seems powerful.
But that won't happen... why waste a space on an enchantment that doesn't do anything immediately and demands more mana just to make 2/2s which don't really contribute to the way this deck wins. Might as well have more removal, the best control decks have tonnes of removal and counterspells and then 1-2 win conditions, and Skywise teachings doesn't do that, it only makes flying 2/2s for 2 mana when you cast a non-creature spell, I'd much prefer to have that mana open to threaten or have a counterspell up
thanks for the input everyone!
run all end hostilities main and anger side, also ojutai would be good! Can you check out my deck? I'd love some tips! http://www.mtgvault.com/djnsports05/decks/naya-walkers/
One of the biggest advantages of running red is playing main board Anger of the Gods. I would caveat this with the fact Abzan anything has so many creature with 4 toughness that it becomes a detriment to the overall scheme. I would guess going either UB control or UW control is just strictly better ATM. Either way, good luck and have fun.
thanks for the input
Anger of the Gods main is not a great choice, at least in any more than a one-of. Your reason is dead on: there is a lot of 4+ toughness values out there, and not just in Abzan. However, seeing as Abzan makes up 35%-45% of the format recently, that is good enough reason alone to relegate it to the board, and bring it in when value is maximized, against aggro, etc.
I like this deck alot except for the secure the wastes and running 3 vaults. The secure, to me, is just a big target due to the fact that so many things in the meta can make it a dead card. DL Atarka hitting the board, Virulent Plague resolving on turn 3, Bile Blight, and "hard to kill" silumgar D.D and other things that make it too much of a risk to play even if you win the resolve battle to possibly lose them on their go around.The idea of running 3x vaults is a bit much for me, maybe 1 or 2 if you're facing tokens or G/W. or a really grindy matchup but more spot removal(speaking in terms of theme) like stoke the flames or valorous stance to allow for better, more efficient options and not raise the chances of getting baited into use precious 5 mana to sweep on what may not be their "real play". Other than that, I like this deck idea a lot though!
thanks ive been thinking maybe 3 is a lil much. the secure is mainly in my eyes for that little extra defense and with jeskai charm it can be a good lifegain swing. i have valorous stance in sb and stoke i feel just isnt as good if your not running any creature to convoke with. i am worried about silumgar dd and atarka. i got encase in ice for atarka but other than a board clear drifting death is just gonna hurt. any ideas of dealing with him?
It's a tricky thing because most in what I seen are going to play silumgar knowing they are ready to play for the win and have already tried to grind you out(thoughtseized your hand for countermagic) So thinking in reverse, I think playing ojutai is a good bet because of the simple fact of pulling a valorous stance on him to save yourself a turn is a better option than throwing a sweeper in the wind and them having a haven up. Maybe aethersprouts due to wide bounce(?) but its not a permanent solution ,unfortunately.I think, what is better in a case, is getting more pressure so they WON'T attack with silumgar is a better option and will allow you to play secure at ease with ojutai and some type of protection, if it fails you can just draw, sweep,and try to counter out. I've been trying to figure out how to efficiently plug silumgar too. :(
Trying to out race the control deck is about card advantage, considering the number of counterspells, you get outclassed by their Silumgar's Scorn/Dragon package, so if I were you, I'd slam it full of dragons and Scorn so you can match them, but also outpace them when you need to. Secure the Wastes is an awesome card, Andrew Cuneo uses it to great effect in his match in the feature match area
How do you plan to win exactly?
Elspeth, Secure the Wastes and Sarkhan are all win conditions
sarkhan or elspeth. ugin or pearl, mantis rider, burn, tokens, i guess what ever option i can use. handle early drops with burn counter what makes sense finish with elspeth ideally
I am a fan of this. I know someone who runs a Jeskai deck but this is sooo different!! I love it!
thanks! appreciate it!
I'll post an in depth reply to this when I get my laptop out. Expect a novel inbound. Hah.
Looking foreword to it :)
what do you all think about soulfire grand master in a control deck. i just like the versatility it brings and wanted to know from someone whos played it if the buyback is worth boarding it for. life link on burn is cool ya sweet but is the buyback to slow?
Sideboard them
Depending on you local meta, Nullify should be in your main 60, most definitely in your 75 as a 2-3 of. Could afford to main 1-2 Encase in Ice, your worst nightmare is a turn 3 Stormbreath Dragon and if you have Nullify and Encase in Ice in your main you'll cover your bases pre-board. I also like Rending Volley in your side board for those pesky Dragonlord Ojutai and any other matchups with white creatures...which is every Abzan deck ATM: Fleecemane Lion(GW) 3/3 Wingmate Roc(3WW) 3/4 Anafenza, the Foremost(GWB) 4/4 Brimaz, King of Oreskos(1WW) 3/4All staples, and all integral to their plan. Plus Temur Aggro is on the rise somewhat which means Savage Knuckleblade(GRU) 4/4. The other SB card worth mentioning is Glare of Heresy for many of the same reason plus Siege Rhino. I also don't like more than one Perilous Vault for the simple reason of having PW's as WC's, can be awkward. Jeskai Charm could be really underrated, the bounce effect is really nice tempo play and the burn is relevant, could use more than 2, but it's a good call either way. Disdainful Stroke is OK in the main, but rather underwhelming unless you are in the mirror or midrange matchup. Shift to them to the SB IMO.The biggest concession you'll have is from Atarka Red to which I say Arc Lightning/Anger of the Gods. The best 2 for 1, or 3 for 1, should they get sloppy and keep Hordeling Outburst in post board. The other concession is life gain, you don't really have as many opportunities to gain any with this configuration nor will you since you can't afford to play Radiant Fountain past 1 or 2 copies. The best option is Soulfire Grand Master and burn which is your current configuration. Not to say SGM should be main, but some number of them for consideration is warranted in your 75. Again good luck and have fun.
Thanks for the input! I'll be sure to think about this.
Okay. Let's get right to it:I see that you've altered the list based on some recommendations. It's awesome that you're open to suggestions, and actively improving the list. Too often people vehemently defend their initial 75, as if a suggestion was a personal attack. Here are my thoughts:I am glad that you prefer the "draw-go" style. I do as well; information is power. Tapping out makes me feel uncomfortable, and it'sm quite simply, not what control wants to do. That being said, if you take a look at the list, much of it will require you to tap out. The walkers are wincons, and necessary, but that's still a turn of "shield's down", if you will. Count the walkers: that's a lot of turns with lowered shields. Plus, that's assuming you're actually casting them. Don't forget that this is machine built to draw cards above all else; that is the essence of control, and the best three words in magic: "Draw a card." You'll draw what you need without polluting the efficiency of the deck with 2-4 uncastable walkers in your hand when you hit late game mode. I would argue more to focus on the ones that you want, and allocate the all-important card slots that you don't to cheaper spells that serve to protect the former. In essence, project out how much during a game you're going to tap out running the above list. That doesn't seem like what you want to do, or, frankly, what will best serve your purposes. The next thing is undercutting. The vaults are awesome, but don't forget; they're going to take your walkers away too. With the current build, you may be putting yourself in a position to vault away your walkers. Granted, that happens sometimes, but, going back to the last paragraph, that equates to a turn of keeping of shields down for minimal value. Wouldn't it better to let other removal handle the bulk of the load, while protecting your value spells, and lowering your curve? I think so. Also, I still think that black is the stronger third color. The spot removal that it offers cannot be matched by red; so our best bet is probably playing a few more counters to handle trouble spots before they even occur. Six in your current list is fine, but I may be tempted to flex up to eight, but that number is one that is best ascertained through testing.This list has some good bones, but needs further renovation. Rather than make specific card selections below, I'm going to use the builder to create a list like this that I would try, and post it. Maybe we can combine them afterwards to make something special. I'll comment back in a few, after I complete it.
Excellent. Thanks for the response! Will give me more to ponder while I'm at work . Lemme know when you get your list up . I would love to see what we can come up with. Always down for input as this meta is constantly changing.
Here you go: http://www.mtgvault.com/hangman/decks/jeskai-control-rev-1/I wrote some explanations for my choices in the How To Play It section.
I love this deck. You have done a very good job with this, and I like the pool of cards you have chosen, and that you are open to recommendations. And that said, I have a suggestion of my own: consider running Treasure Cruise, possibly in place of Jace's Ingenuity. The reason why I think this is because, after casting a bunch of burn and counter spells, in the end it will end up costing less than Jace's Ingenuity. And, with it costing less, it leaves open the possibility of casting more cards (as you spent less mana to get three cards), which could pile into another Treasure Cruise. Of course, this is only my opinion. To go against it, you are running 4 Dig Through Time, which is an awesome delve card. But, just give it a little thought. And again, very nice job!
thanks i have been running the idea of 3 digs 1 cruise i just feel that the 2 cards out of 7 most of the time lands me what i need instead of hoping the next 3 do. i know i dont like divination and was playing around with steam augory but i think maybe a cruise wouldnt be a bad addition
updated the list. thinking i need to do some trading for a couple soulfire grandmasters
This is shaping up, but I'm still inclined to object to the removal package. This is going to struggle with spot removal, and it seems like stuff will get jammed in your hand often. However, the walkers section is looking much better. Secure the wastes is good, but there is enough Bile Blight in the format to make it a one-of. I would also drop the Nullify number, and add at least one Disdainful Stroke main. Counter Siege Rhino/Dragonlord (Your Choice Here) for two mana is the nuts. Jeskai Charm seems ineffective. It's main function here is for tempo, and I guess it hooks up well with Elspeth, but no way do I think that it should get three spots your 60. It's a temporary solution to a permanent problem, and you don't want that. Same with Ojutai's Command. It's not the worst card overall, but dropping it in favor of something else will serve to lean out the deck, and assist your aching removal package. You'll be much happier ripping a Roast over that most of the time, or something similar. Also, by thinning out your curve, 27 lands isn't necessary. 26 is just fine, and that's a spot that we can allocate to a utility spell. Again, more quick removal is necessary. Cards that I feel should be in the main are small removal spells. Wild Slash and Valorous Stance come to mind. Why not try:-1 Secure the Wastes-1 Ojutai's Command-1 Nullify-2 Jeskai Charm-1 Land (Dealer's Choice; haven't done a mana-base analysis) +3 Wild Slash+2 Disdainful Stroke+1 RoastI opted out of picking Valorous Stance, because it's secondary function (Make me indestructible) is often used a shield for a finisher, like Ojutai. Since we're not playing Ojutai, Roast gets the nod.
Jeskai charm adds bounce but more importantly lifelink. Secure the waste and elspeth can net me big numbers surprise bigger blockers. I'm just not a fan of wild slash. It would be cool to hit a guy turn one but after that it loses a ton of value. I'm testing out nullify and ojutai a command. Ojutai a command gives me a little more life gain some card draw or an extra counter. Roast has been on my mind but I feel it's slow. The sorc speed just ruins it for me. I'm def not against at least one stroke in MB. Just wanna see how the nullify runs first
Sorcery speed on Roast in not ideal, and I understand. But, it does handle a ton of things that the deck will have problems with, like anything Abzan. That's why it's a one-of; it will find value against almost any deck. Wild Slash is certainly not Lightning Bolt, and I understand that. But allow me to make a list of things that it kills for ONE mana:Rakshasa DeathdealerMonastery SwiftspearZurgo BellstrikerDen ProtectorGoblin RabblemasterElvish Mystic... I can go for days...Boon SatyrRattleclaw MysticHornet QueenWarden of the First TreeLightning BeserkerEidolon of the Great RevelFamewake Phoenixetc.So much value. Sure, it will get boarded out, but it's a huge reason to play red. It's the one thing black doesn't have; a solid one-mana kill spell. Also, when Soulfire Grandmaster gets boarded in, it's more lifelink. Pressuring you on this because I think you'll find that it's a hero.
Also, Nullify is good, but not as good as scorn. However, since we're not playing Dragons, it makes sense. Just bear in mind that all of your counters require double blue, which isn't huge, but relevant.
Ya know that list does seem quite like I need maybe one or 2. Cool more tests to be done. Thanks for the input
No problem man. Let me know how testing goes; interested to see how this works.Sidebar: I also had an obscure, but fun idea to build in Myth Realized as a wincon. Maybe we could play with Myth Jeskai if you find that this route isn't working.
Ye Myth doesn't work, my mate tried it, just didn't work, Dromoka's command and that!
It could work; I'm convinced that it could. Just needs the right build. Not sure what that is, but UWR seems like a decent fit, with small burn spells. I don't know that it will Top 8 a GP, but it would be a fun night at an FNM.
It's a fun card but just kinda slow maybe as like a one of but with vaults and just so much enchant hate it just doesn't work. Believe you me I want it to work lol it's a sweet card
No, I agree. The whole build would have to be redone. Just saying. Haha. SO much flavor.
o yea hangman , wild slash love it thanks lol
Haha! No problem; tapping one mana and killing something is glorious. Two to the face isn't bad either! How's the rest of deck playing?
hmm...just coming back to this and seeing the changes......I like nullify, which in some case could be excellent but is only a sub for the silumgar scorn which counters flat out anything. I really would just add DL Ojutai for the charms and replace the nulls for scorn's to make them effective. If needed you can cut the lightning stikes (I say this because 3 is a odd number for to kill anything at ) to 2 and keep 2 charms for tempo/+1 trickery.I think ojutai's command is one of those cards that if pulled out on their tapped out play is a blowout but for 4 for counter and draw/lifegain? *tilts head* idk. Cruise is a great card and I agree with in exchange for ingenuity. Now with roast .........roast is a weird card to judge because it IS red's best and pure spot removal atm but with a scary conditional that deters it from shining though. I think you side it but will be heavily sided against anything other than control decks and bant.
Ojutai command is one I'm just plain wondering about. I had narset PW and didn't like when I had her especially with vaults. I know I am in need of life gain. I'm still trying to get a couple soul fire grandmasters and that would play decently with it. I'm liking the talk of wild slash and wanna put some in and 3 charms is too many I agree . Also I'm trying to avoid dl ojutai mainly because I don't have one and want to see if I can make a deck without any dragons
Even with 4 Dragonlord Ojutai, I would only put 2-3 Silumgar's Scorn. There just isn't a reason to play more than this when you have only 4 dragons. To go up to 5-6 dragons then you have a case for 4, but the downside for Silumgar's Scorn is pretty bad as a Forced Spike. However some number of Nullify is going to be good as a main board card right now in this current meta, plus it still gives you game against any Dragon control decks. Thus the reason to go U/W or U/B, to make sure UU isn't a problem. Still rather have Jace's Ingenuity to as an on their turn mana go style of deck. Avoid as many sorcery in the main as possible. I wouldn't be against Raise the Alarm in the 75 some where.
might not be a bad idea. im actually super happy since putting in those nullify. the burn fills up delve fast, been able to double dig a few times fairly quickly. still dont know how i feel about treasure cruise. the sorc speed just doesnt do it for me. i am however loving that 1 roast lol any ideas on how to interact with an early ashiok? i kept 2 negates in sb for it. that turn 3 ashiok with me on the draw is just brutal
Just have to say Silumgar's Scorn is the best counterspell in standard, you jam 4 in Dragon Control
Roast is a beast dude. Turn Ashiok is really nothing SUPER scary, as they'll usually board it out against you anyway. However, your best bet is probably just countering it if you can. If not, burn to the ground. Just hard to race because of her +2. I'm still a fan of adding a Disdainful Stroke or two to the main, btw.
I still play a one of Banishing Light to keep competitive against any enchantment/PW I may not be able to handle for whatever reason. A turn 3 Ashiok is devastating, they have no pressure to do anything but mill you 3 per turn while you hope it doesn't exile all your win cons.
really nice and well thought control deck, it a +1 for me great job!!! :)))
go check out my new deck 1-800-COMPANY!!!
thanks man will do
I like the concept of this deck but it has some issues others have already commented on. I'd run some soulfire grand master over jeskai charms. There is no real use for Jeskai Charm in this deck, the tempo gain is useless for control, 4 damage to player is ok but restrictive and the lifegain pump will rarely be used. It's useful too late in the game once Elspeth is out or you get off a Secure the Wastes. Soulfires allow you to not only conserve cards late game but provide that oh so valuable life gain. You can drop a soulfire on turn 8, keep up mana for nullify, negate, disdainful, magma jet or l. bolt and buy it back.
he is def on my radar just don't have him yet. and ive actually had great success with bouncing a threat for a turn with my charm. the life gain don't happen often i agree but that bounce is just great. i personally love dropping vault and making the opponent continue to drop mana into the vault after i bounced their guy. and at the very least its straight 4 to the face. the incognito win con of burning someone out lol. i also run mantis riders in sb and swinging for a 4 gain 4 drain with them is pretty great. also so far life hasn't actually been a big problem. with all the burn and counters its pretty hard to actually get a guy to stick to hurt me. but most deffinently i will be putting soulfire grand masters in. probably to SB but i have not played him yet so maybe MB after testing
Yea test around with him, even as a proxy for now. The utility of Jeskai Charm is great, but it's not usually a turn 3 play. If you need that extra damage option keep it in, but if you find yourself having enough burn, I would suggest trying out Voyage's End or even Whisk Away only because those two cards will generally be playable sooner than Jeskai charm. Whisk might be a we expensive. On the other hand, you are control so it may not be an issue casting anyway.
I would love to play against this actually since especially with the bant deck I just brewed-------------------------> http://www.mtgvault.com/averagenovice74/decks/ojutai-bant-permission-kill/
I just recently played my U/W control deck with some rather outside the box selections. I would gather most would scoff at my choices, but I can say with certainty they are great for this current meta. The reason I'm sharing this is because your deck is still base U/W which means you could possibly glean some different choices for yourself.http://www.mtgvault.com/mcflyguy/decks/uw-control-2/Give it a look, tell what you like and ask me anything about why those selections were made. I would enjoy some debate on the subject of moving away from tri color control to two color control.
updated my list. feedback appreciated
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Wild Slash is so bad. Maybe replace with Disdainful Stroke? You can sideboard Rending Volley and/or Roast.