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Removal, counter, and some tokens.
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I thought once about wall of frost... but ultimately removed it for something better. (something not so difficult to play quickly) Doom Blade is nice, why no Grasp of darkness? that would work against other black decks as well as regeneration green decks.
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it's side-boarded. i don't have the sideboard posted, but if i'm going against black i swap them out game 2. what did you swap out wall for? i find they work great. i'd i had a jace the mindsculptor i'd swap out 1 for him.
Naturally, some of the best cards for this deck are going to be pretty non-budget (Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Frost Titan) so I'll just try to mention some other options for your deck. If you can somehow pick up one or more of those 2 cards, put them in for sure. Anyways, Mystifying Maze seems slightly worthless to be honest. Most of the big threats that would normally be worth stopping with it all have comes into play abilities (the 5 titans and cards like Avenger of Zendikar and more). I would swap these for Tectonic Edge instead. They tend to be much better against taking out opposing man-lands like Raging Ravine. Mana Leak is probably the best counter you could play in this deck, a definite 4-of. Because the deck is built to be control, you do not need all the little creatures or even that many creatures at all. I would remove all the vampires (maybe moving the nighthawk to the sideboard if keeping it at all). I would also increase the preordain count to 4. Also, I would maybe swap 1 Doom Blade for 1 Disfigure. It actually helps against a lot of creatures currently used in standard right now. The only big things it doesn't stop are the big threats you can/should counter instead. I'd also recommend using 4 Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek, depending on your metagame. Personally, I often like a 1-of Jace's Ingenuity as well. If you want more examples of other similar directions to take this, take a look at Nick Spagnolo's UB control deck. He has won multiple major tournaments in the past month with his list which is slightly different but very good (he runs 4 JtMS, though so you may just want to base your list around it and turn it more budget). Sorry if this was a bit much... Best of luck!
Oh, almost forgot... Sword of Body and Mind also is a waste of a card-slot in this deck. Control decks don't need many creatures and keeping 1 or 2 on the field alone is all you should need to win. You really shouldn't need the equipment.
Thanks a lot! And yeah, I agree with most of what you just said. I have yet to really play test this deck, so I'll definitely keep in mind all those suggestions. But, if it's not too much to ask, would you mind suggesting which cards you'd take out for durress and other cards mentioned? I wouldn't really know how to switch it around all that much. And mana leak, I've heard it's an amazing counter, but it's not really definite. if someone has a spare 3 mana, they can slide by. which to me, doesn't really sound all that promising. though I am open to suggestion. Tectonic edge is a good suggestion, I'll try swapping maze for them. disfigure... I'll have to try out that one, as well. anddd to sword of body and mind; I personally love this card. animate creeping tar pit, equip sword, swing for 5, mill 10? although I haven't really playtested this deck a lot, when I have that combo was devastating. and I may add neurok invisimaster, for another direct mill. and the wolf tokens are a nice little bonus. but I really do appreciate your comments, and I'll try them all out and see what works best! Thanks a lot.
And bytheway, forgot to mention, i added guul draz for speed. i personally love that card, lol. once you get your opp. down to 10, she's a nice little threat. and intimidate+sword of body and mind is also quite nice. even though I'm not trying to mill anybody out, sword of body and mind eliminates 10 possible threats. but, we'll see how everything goes.
Unless you actually plan to mill the opponent, getting rid of 10 cards doesn't typically do much. Sure, there's a chance you just eliminated all their best cards, but there's an equally good chance you just put them 10 cards closer to those cards as well. I would cut all 6 vampires. Speed is not the job of the control deck. The purpose is to slow the game down. Cut the 2 swords. They're mana intensive and don't help much honestly, especially on a big threat like your titans. Liliana is a trap. She seems really good on the surface, but she's secretly just too much mana for too little of an effect, especially in a control deck. If you ever tap out, it better be winning you the game. Liliana just can't do that. So, basically I would suggest the following (after the changes you've already made): -3 Guul Draz -2 Sword of Body and Mind -2 Mystifying Maze -2 Liliana -1 Doom Blade -1 Deprive -1 Cancel (-12 Cards total) +4 Mana Leak +1 Jace's Ingenuity +1 Disfigure +2 Duress +2 Tectonic Edge +2 Consume the Meek/Into the Roil (I would go with some combination of these to round it out) (+12 Cards total) As for the Deprive/Cancel, they seem just fine as 1-ofs. I don't know if you need or should have more than 8 counters maindeck. 6-8 seems about right. Mana Leak is much more definite than negate, and is beyond exceptional in the early game, which is the point of control again. You want to slow the game down, take control of the game, and drop your bomb later when the coast is clear for the win. Mana leak helps you do just that. Sure, it won't always be perfect but often it's worth countering something against another control deck just to force them to tap out. Anyways, those are my suggestions. You can take them however you want, I suppose. The 1-ofs are often actually quite nice but I can understand if you want the deck a bit more streamlined. Next step is a good sideboard. I'd look at memoricide for sure as a start.
Thank you a lot! I'll definitely play these changes. And in regards to memoricide, it's already in my sideboard, but I don't have it posted. as is consume the meek, dispel, and grasp of darkness. But I can't thank you enough in regards to this deck, I've seen all the decks you've made and they're quite impressive. So I'll deff. work with these, and put my own spin on them. Thanks (:
I can't help but tell you how right you were, lol. Thank you, a lot!
Glad it seems to be working out for you!:) Any time. Just glad I can help at all.
Updated this, comments are more than welcome.
I'm startin to dig these decks, dude
Even though I know control is supposed to be slow, it seems that when I'm going up against faster decks, it's not what I'd like to be running. any suggestions?
if youve got the cash, jtms
I do not, have the cash. Lol that's why there's only one. If i pull more, hellyeah. but until then..
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Nice Deck man and congrats on 2 Decks on the Front Page! My suggestion is putting Frost Titan in the Sideboard to bring in against Mirror Match. Trust me, I've seen those Worlds 2010 Gameplay Videos, Grave Titan can turn games around, and if you have a really good counter to it in your Sideboard, you wont regret it.
thanks, man! and yeah, that's a good point. They used to be in this deck, but i took them out for sphinxes. I hadnt thought of sideboarding, thanks! (:
Took out the hexmages for the frost titan. Originally, had taken out the flashfreezes, but I'd rather have solid counter against a fast red deck, than to have a planeswalker killer that I should have countered anyways.
In my testing, flashfreeze is great against RG decks like valakut but not so much against fast red decks. They're typically too fast and cheap to effectively counter all of their spells. This is where having a few ratchet bombs comes in handy. Also, in the sideboard cards like Vampire Nighthawk, Skinrender, and even Sorin Markov are seeing play now. Also, Inquisition of Kozilek is helpful here as well in the main, alongside the duress. You have 7 big creatures to win with right now. Grave Titan is the best of them for the main deck by a lot it seems. The extra creatures it creates are useful in blocking little dudes or attacking an opposing jace. Plus, it adds up to be a lot of damage to close down a game really quickly. I would suggest adding one more grave titan and dropping the other win conditions, allowing you to get rid of consuming vapors (now that persecuter could be gone) and instead swap in a couple ratchet bombs and Inquisition of Kozilek. I don't think you really need the grasp of darkness in the sideboard either. I guess I don't know your metagame but if there is much for valakut or creature lands, I would add some spreading seas instead. Just some ideas to kick around.
Oh, and a deck that wants to counter stuff a lot may benefit more from something besides Forsee - something either cheaper or instant speed like another Jace Beleren or Jace's Ingenuity.
whenever I see that you comment, I just let out a subtle "yessss" because you always give such great advice. thanks for the tips, but persecutor deffinitely has to stay, lol. he is my main win condition, believe it or not. when he hits the board, turn 4, i just love the look on my opponent's face. i took out foresee for another grave titan, because usually I'm stalling anyway, so another beatstick couldnt hurt, mana intensive or not. ill see how these changes run, and then debate wether or not to remove a wurmcoil or the sphinxes. and as for the sideboard, spreading seas seems like a waste, here, with the main concern (of the local metagame) being creatures/jace. ratchet bomb is a great idea, thanks (: and sorin markov is great as well. thanks a bunch :3
Ok, even if the metagame is different, 8 top end threats seems like way too many for this deck. Even a typical ramp deck seldom plays that many or barely that much. A control deck should only need 3, maybe 5 at most, big threats to win the game (not counting something like Jace or Tar Pits). Basically, a control deck such as yours really only needs to stop your opponent through removal and counters. Then, you just draw into more ways to slow the game down and eventually win. It may seem odd but in many cases, an opening 7 card hand for a control deck doesn't want to even see their 6+ mana threat. This is because for at least 6 turns, it does absolutely nothing! If you think about it, 5 big, top-end, threats means you have a 1 in 12 chance of drawing them. This means if you start with a 7 card hand, you will likely draw it before or just in time to actually play it, short of ramping in some way. So, in short, 8 is just simply too many and would probably be better as more control cards - card draw, counters, and removal. I'd suggest one more Jace Beleren maybe (Big Jace obviously is better but much much harder to come by) or maybe even a couple of everflowing chalice as additional targets for your Trinket Mage. Cutting some big threats would also allow you to maybe add in some Ratchet Bombs to the main. There are several good options. It's really coming along nicely, though. Best of luck, as always.
makes sense, but in all honesty, even though abyssal persecutor is just as powerful as any other 6 drop 6/6, he only costs 4 to drop, so I don't really look at him as being a big finisher, even though at most times he is. i love wurmcoil (just the single one) for the lifelink and the 2 little guys he creates, which is why he (in my opinion) is definite for this deck. 3 grave titans seems good. and the sphinxes, well, I guess I'll try swapping them for some ratchet bombs, and then sideboard the sphinxes. the shroud, I find, just flat out beats down white. goodbye arrest, pacifism, journey to nowhere; those cards see hugee gameplay around here, and it's nice to know a 5/5 flying is safe. but after saying all this, if I wasn't going up against much white, maybe a ratchet bomb would do me better. i'll try the bombs, then the chalices and see how each of them runs. thanks, again (:
those changes look good?
Overall, I'd say it definitely looks pretty solid, yes. :) 6 Big threats is a much better/safer number I think (particularly when you only have one Mind-Sculptor) than 8. If you get more Mind-Sculptors, then even 6 may be a bit much. I'm really liking this list, though. As for those white enchantments - those Ratchet Bombs you're adding in can really even help take care of those in a pinch as well.:)
i cant thank you enough, (:
edna, for sideboarding purpouses, what do you think is better; memoricide or sadistic sacrement?
Personally, I believe Memoricide is better, espescially when you're not playing Mono-Black or some odd ramp deck. However, I can see the benefits to the Sacrement - allowing you to really see their whole deck and pick out whatever seems most relevent after doing so. Still, I think the memoricide will typically do more damage - especially against a deck like valakut where all their titans are now gone.
yeah that makes sense :3 i love this deck now, its undefeated amongst my friends
Edna, if you'll look I made quite a few changes. How do you find them now?
Well, if you hadn't noticed, I've been off this site for a couple weeks now. Umm, I definitly like this build much better than before, even. The maindeck looks incredibly tuned. The sideboard seems like it could be changed a bit. The main things that stick out are those Frost Titans and Sphinx. They may be good I guess but I really don't honestly see where, so much. I feel like there may still be better solutions there, yet. Otherwise pretty briliant. Maybe Negates could go in for the control mirror instead of those creatures for the SB? Something like that seems pretty good. Even another 2 Tectonic Edge can really be beneficial.
yeah, the sideboard still needs some work. but thanks for your comment, once again, and i'm glad you like the deck (:
this deck isnt really posted right now. thinknig up some major changes (: ill comment when it's in its final form ^.^
http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=126028 come check it out
I like your deck I'm new to magic and making decks can you please see if you can help me i would be eternally grateful might even give you my first born, but seriously I need some ideas on how to improve. http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=128048
After looking online my friend has decided to make this exact deck i told him good luck finding a mind sculpter someone is willing to trade for.
Haha, tell him net decking is not cool.
holycrap sorin markov does wonders in this deck.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't use Sorin! I wish it wasn't so...because he is an absolute BAMF, but as a card (at this point) Sorin is just...bad.
haha not maindecked, side boarded! yesterday, i went up against the best lifegain ive ever played. and after i swapped in sorin, he single handedly won me the game. and not to mention the midnslaver effect later on. he may seem bad, but in certain cases, he just owns.
but, seeing as how you're wayy more experienced than me, do you have any suggestions as to what could be better?
You mean for against Life-gain? Well Sorin is pretty good for that. Leyline of Punishment works well, so does poison/infect (obviously). Quietus Spike is damn sexy, but that's not standard...same with False Cure, again...not standard. Needlebite Trap is so-so...it'll slow them down a little. Mostly when facing LG, you can't really count on going aggro enough to kill them unless you're running Vampires or something VERY fast and/or hard-hitting. In your case, being a control deck, just keep the control going and make sure they can't use Felidar. If you do that, you should be able to mill them out.
Yeah, I find Sorin very usefull in a few matchups. lifegain, which is very current where I play, is devastated when sorin makes waste of all their little lifegain spells. in a slower deck, controlling their turn is always nice. and Iunno, I just find around here, sorin is nice to have sideboarded :3
hey i run a fast black deck with a lot of the same creatures but no blue or control let me tell you with a deck packed full of these creatures you cant go wrong, i know both decks have a completly different feel but my point is that the stand out cards in here are enough to make the deck good on there own as long as your running things like abyssal peresecutor garve titan and wurmcoil engine in one deck, your onto a winner, also very well put together. have a look at my eldrazi machine gun fodder deck if you would its new and the advise is appreciated.
why thank you (: and yeah sure, ill take a looksy
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I'm not entirely sure what to say about it; Edna has already said most of what I would say...the most I could do is build a sample deck of my own with the same cards showing how I would do it, but it is your deck, not mine...
No problem, man (: