Discussion Forum

Enchantments vs. Counters

So I was playing a deck that utilized the artifact Quicksilver Fountain, making everyone's mana blue via flood counters. At the beginning of each players upkeep, if all lands were blue, all flood counters were removed, and the process started up again. About halfway into the game, a buddy of mine put Evil Presence on one of my islands, effectively making it a swamp. When it came to the point where all lands were blue, there was a big debate over whether the counters should be removed due to my island now being a swamp, despite the flood counter.

In such a situation, would the flood counter overrule the enchantment? Or would the enchantment overrule the counter, keeping everyone's mana blue?
Posted 29 July 2010 at 19:10

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this probably needs a judge to weigh in but here's my interpretation:

the land becomes a swamp, with a flood counter on it..making it an island.

when the flood counter gets removed, it becomes a swamp rather than it's original type.
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Posted 29 July 2010 at 20:58

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Yeah, that is what we ruled. I guess I'll have to mull over the rules a bit just to see if we're right.
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Posted 30 July 2010 at 00:47

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If i am correct, the enchantment would prevail if it had a counter, but if you put a counter on it AFTER if became enchanted, it would become an island. The effects work same as on the stack: The last played takes priority. So: if it had a flood counter, its an island, if it then got enchanted, it became a swamp, then they would need to put a second flood counter on it in order to have it become an island once again. When it lost the counter, it would again become a swamp

If im incorrect, please tell me. I cant quote the rules exactly, but ive actually been studying to try for judge.
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Posted 30 July 2010 at 02:09

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This one could really use a judge's input because I'm not sure whether the evil presence happening after the flood counter would make the land a swamp due to the way quicksilver fountain is worded.
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Posted 30 July 2010 at 02:57

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@ Irrelevant Thats how we interpreted it; we left it up to priority.

@ Shadowex3 I'd definitely think so, this is one of those times in Magic where everyone at the table was just dumbfounded.
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Posted 30 July 2010 at 04:33

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here's what i think:

the fountain puts a flood counter on a non island land at the beginning of each players upkeep. an effect (evil presence) changed 1 land to a swamp in let's say the main phase. the fountain says "At the beginning of each end step, if all lands on the battlefield are Islands, remove all flood counters from them." but the evil presence changed 1 land to a swamp. so that means that the counters are not removed because there is a different land type in play (swamp) . on the next player's upkeep (the player that has the swamp), the fountain kicks in again putting a counter on the swamp. the enchantment is still there but it has no effect bec the effect of the fountain resolved. now at the beginning of the end step, all lands are now island so the all the counters (including the first counters that was added before the island was changed to a swamp) are removed, but not the evil presence.
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Posted 16 August 2010 at 00:28

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in addition : if the fountain was removed before the end step, then all lands will be islands except for the enchanted land w/c is a swamp. the counters are not removed. the land will still be a swamp even if there is a counter because the enchantment is there.
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Posted 16 August 2010 at 00:33

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Cool, I get back and there's a timestamp question. Anyways, because both of the effects are doing the same thing (type-changing) to the card, and are continuous, the most recently applied effect wins (the Evil Presence). It's a swamp. However, next upkeep you can put another Flood counter on it to make that the most recent, which then triggers the Fountain.
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Posted 17 August 2010 at 05:36

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That was what I thought at first but quicksilver specifically states anything with a flood counter is an island and only an island and evil presence doesn't get rid of the flood counter, you'd think the wording of quicksilver would mean that until the flood counter (or quicksilver) is removed that land is stuck being an island even if you do something like play prismatic.
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Posted 17 August 2010 at 07:21

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see, even with the wording like that, it's still a continuous ability, just like Evil Presence. They apply themselves in the same layer, so it goes back to timestamps where the most recent one, the Evil Presence, wins!
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Posted 18 August 2010 at 02:42

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