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Ok so what happens is you get Pyromancer's online and then cast Bolt. Pyromancer's creates one copy of the bolt so now there are two. Then you cast Reverberate on the bolt to make a third bolt and the reverberate gets copied as well, you can now create either a fourth bolt or cause a loop of applying one reverberate to one reverberate over and over again.

So basically, he could get an infinite combo out to kill and number of creatures/players w/o shroud.

[QUOTE=Shadowex3]Ok so what happens is you get Pyromancer's online and then cast Bolt. Pyromancer's creates one copy of the bolt so now there are two. Then you cast Reverberate on the bolt to make a third bolt and the reverberate gets copied as well, you can now create either a fourth bolt or cause a loop of applying one reverberate to one reverberate over and over again.[/QUOTE]

Pyromancer and Reverberate both have the same end effect, They both Copy
a wont be copied from pyromancers cause its not a cast spell. its just a copy.

so if you had 1 pyromancers active and cast lightning bolt then reverberate on the lightning bolt you would have.

1: cast lightinging bolt
2: pyromancers copy of lightning bolt
3: cast reverberates to copy lightning bolt
4: pyromancers copy of reverberates copy of lightning bolt.

so no you wont have an infinite loop... which is a bad thing cause you cant win if ya had one... cause none of the damage would ever be settled (it would all be on the STACK)

but 3 mana for 12 damage is very nice indeed.

actually on step 4 of your example, Pyromancer's Ascension makes a copy of Reverberate (this is due to the timing of the effects: the ascension effect triggers on Reverberate being cast, not when it resolves.)

this new copy of Reverberate is free to select a different spell to copy. and since the first Reverberate is still on the stack when the copy is cast, it is free to copy it.

so yes, essentially this is an infinite combo. which is NOT the same thing as an infinite loop(which results in a draw). the term 'infinite combo' implies you can repeat the process as many times as you need to, you could do it 20 000 times if you wanted to, but you can still choose the number of recursions.


ps: this would only result in a large number of Reverberates, not a large number of Lightning Bolts. it's not that useful in general, though it would be extremely powerful if followed up by a spell with the Storm ability.

ok so my step four is wrong but it wouldnt be able to get more then 12 damage with just those 3 cards.

if you copy reverberate you make a copy of it you dont cast another spell. so you can copy reverberate 100,000,000~ times but in the end the only spell you can copy that will finish the ongoing copies is lightning bolt. so its still only going to be 12 damage

a copy is not a cast spell so pyromancers does not make a new copy from the copy.

ah yes, my bad, it's true that copying a spell doesn't count as casting it, it simply creates a new copy on the stack.

so either way it only triggers once off the reverberate, regardless of what it copies.

That's what I said. All you're going to do is wind up reverberating your reverberate a lot of times, which is kind of like attacking someone with an unaltered ornithopter. Sure you CAN, but unless you've got something special planned why would you WANT to?

ya except you don't get a bunch of reverberate copies, you only get one.

[quote]Then you cast Reverberate on the bolt to make a third bolt and the reverberate gets copied as well, you can now create either a fourth bolt or cause a loop of applying one reverberate to one reverberate over and over again.[/quote]

I said the first reverberate is copied and then you can either use the copy to target bolt again, or to target the first reverberate which gives you another that can either target the bolt or a reverberate to give you another ad percussus verpae

[QUOTE=Seras]ya except you don't get a bunch of reverberate copies, you only get one.[/QUOTE]You could get as many copies of Reverberate as you liked (even if you were not allowed to copy the copies, you could still target the original). But you'd still only get 4 Lightning Bolts, since the copied Reverberates have the choice of 'copy Reverberate' (which doesn't really do much) or 'copy Lightning Bolt'.

right, but doing that is functionally null.

there's no end difference between copying it once or copying it 10,000 times

earlier i mentioned that mechanics like Storm could feed of this, which is where i was wrong...because nothing triggers off it since it doesn't get cast/played.

given that, these extra copies are mechanically meaningless.

You know that, I know that, but this is Magic. People enjoy doing things the roundabout way.