Discussion Forum

[QUOTE=olataro]if i had a creature and then i give it protection from artifact, would the equipment that i already equip on it be unequip?[/QUOTE]

yes...................................

yeah its the same as having an enchantment on a creature if you give the creature protection from the color the enchantment is the enchantment is destroyed

well.. auras are not actually "destroyed", they simply become unattached which leads to it being moved to the graveyard as a state-based cleanup.

an important distinction in case someone expects that making the aura indestructible would prevent this from happening.

Oh, crap..................this means my friend can easily remove my equipment....that sucks..........if i cast burn to stag on one of his precursor golems, and then he casts artifact protection on his precursor golems, thus only one of his artifacts are destroyed? And does precursor golem's effect affects the golems form golem factory?

please try to use the correct name for cards and if possible wrap them in the [ card ] [ /card ] tags.

can't really understand your first question, try to use more precise wording.

for the second question: yes, Precursor Golem 's second ability triggers for any creature with the Golem type.

This, children, is why you should draft a Bellowing Tanglewurm over a Nim Deathmantle if you're going to get your Tel-Jilad Exile to infekill your opponent. I heard a lot of stories of people saying "woooot and i took deathmantle and put it on my TJE and he was down in two turns" but it simply doesn't work that way, for the simple reason that the equip ability has the word "target" in its description which makes your Exile cry.

AH DARN, there goes my strata scythe + neurok invisimancer combo

How bout etched champion's protection from all colours? Does colourless counts as a colour too?

No, colourless is not a colour.

If I use Elspeth, Knight-Errant to give a creature +3/+3 and flying until end of turn and then equip a Sword of Light and Shadow, will the creature still have +3/+3 and flying?

If you wait for Elspeth's ability to resolve before you equip the sword, it'll still have +3/+3 and flying, I suppose. The creature with protection can't be "targeted" by white or black sources, but it isn't targeted, because that already happened. Now it's only effected by a white or black source, but protection doesn't involve effects ceasing to have their... effect.

But then I'm not a judge, so I don't know for sure.

[QUOTE=pastahunter]If you wait for Elspeth's ability to resolve before you equip the sword, it'll still have +3/+3 and flying, I suppose. The creature with protection can't be "targeted" by white or black sources, but it isn't targeted, because that already happened. Now it's only effected by a white or black source, but protection doesn't involve effects ceasing to have their... effect.

But then I'm not a judge, so I don't know for sure.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's right. Targeted spells and abilities only check for target legality twice: when they are played (put on the stack) and when they resolve.

If your creature is targetable by Elspeth's ability when you play it, and still targetable when it resolves, it will give the creature +3/+3 and flying until the end of the turn.

That effect will last for its stated duration (unless the creature leaves the battlefield), even if the creature later becomes an illegal target for the ability that created it.

Wait........does that mean protection from artifacts does not remoce the equipment from the creature?

Now I may be wrong, but...

I believe that the reason hides in the fact that, like the ability I asked about, the equipment checks as well. It may be possible, though I do not know, that the equipment checks continuously, not just twice.

Again, I don't know if this is correct or not, it is just my interpretation of what I read.

Hmmm, my friend mention something about the "higher stacked spell" comes first? IS it true?

read this: http://mtgsalvation.com/794-priority-and-the-stack.html

Okay...........so does protection from artifact remove the equipment after you have already equiped it on your creature?

yes, we already answered that.

Ya, i know. just to make clear. My friend and i restarted the discussion again after aneximines reply. Thnx by the way. You guys are vey helpful

One last summary:

Protection from [quality] does four things (DEBT):

Prevent all Damage that would be dealt to the protected object from [quality] sources.

The protected object can't be Enchanted or Equipped by [quality] objects.

The protected object can't be Blocked by [quality] creatures.

The protected object can't be Targeted by [quality] spells or the abilities of [quality] sources.


The E part is why protection causes auras and equipment (and fortifications) to fall off.

Otherwise, continuous effects that were applied before the protection existed will continue for their stated duration.


Here's the gritty details:

702.14. Protection

702.14a Protection is a static ability, written “Protection from [quality].” This quality is usually a color (as in “protection from black”) but can be any characteristic value. If the quality happens to be a card name, it is treated as such only if the protection ability specifies that the quality is a name. If the quality is a card type, subtype, or supertype, the ability applies to sources that are permanents with that card type, subtype, or supertype and to any sources not on the battlefield that are of that card type, subtype, or supertype. This is an exception to rule 109.2.

702.14b A permanent or player with protection can’t be targeted by spells with the stated quality and can’t be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality.

702.14c A permanent or player with protection can’t be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based action. (See rule 704, “State-Based Actions.”)

702.14d A permanent with protection can’t be equipped by Equipment that have the stated quality or fortified by Fortifications that have the stated quality. Such Equipment or Fortifications become unattached from that permanent as a state-based action, but remain on the battlefield. (See rule 704, “State-Based Actions.”)

702.14e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented.

702.14f Attacking creatures with protection can’t be blocked by creatures that have the stated quality.

So that means you cant trample a protected creature right?

[QUOTE=olataro]So that means you cant trample a protected creature right?[/QUOTE]

A trampler can always "trample over" a sufficiently small creature.

When your trampler is blocked, all you have to do is assign "lethal damage" to the creature(s) blocking it, and you can assign the rest of its combat damage to the defending player.

"Lethal damage" is simply a number equal the the blocker's toughness minus any damage already on it.

It doesn't matter whether this damage will actually kill the creature, it just has to meet that number.

So, you can trample over protection, damage prevention (Dawn Elemental), indestructibility, whatever.

The only way to mess with trample as the defending player is to somehow take over the decision of how the trampler assigns its combat damage. That is a rare effect, though.

Oh, I was always under the impression that having protection prevented the damage from being dealt, therefore leaving trample useless when blocked by a creature with said protection. My understanding was that if damage couldn't be dealt to the protected creature then trample damage couldn't be assigned by default. It's a good thing I read these forums. Thanks.

Ya, i didnt know that too. If i did, i wouldnt have such a hard time trampling over my friend's annoying etched champion.

Well, in case your friends give you trouble, here's the actual rule. Note in particular the bolded portion and the second example.


702.17. Trample

702.17a Trample is a static ability that modifies the rules for assigning an attacking creature’s combat damage. The ability has no effect when a creature with trample is blocking or is dealing noncombat damage. (See rule 510, “Combat Damage Step.”)

702.17b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. The attacking creature’s controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it’s attacking.
Example: A 2/2 creature with an ability that enables it to block multiple attackers blocks two attackers: a 1/1 with no abilities a 3/3 with trample. The active player could assign 1 damage from the first attacker and 1 damage from the second to the blocking creature, and 2 damage to the defending player from the creature with trample.
Example: A 6/6 green creature with trample is blocked by a 2/2 creature with protection from green. The attacking creature’s controller must assign at least 2 damage to the blocker, even though that damage will be prevented by the blocker’s protection ability. The attacking creature’s controller can divide the rest of the damage as he or she chooses between the blocking creature and the defending player.

702.17c If an attacking creature with trample is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to the player or planeswalker it’s attacking.

702.17d If a creature with trample is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be assigned to the defending player, even if that planeswalker has been removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign is greater than the planeswalker’s loyalty.

702.17e Multiple instances of trample on the same creature are redundant.

Wait, are you saying that if i block using 3 creatures, he have to kill all those 3 before trample could work???

[QUOTE=olataro]Wait, are you saying that if i block using 3 creatures, he have to kill all those 3 before trample could work???[/QUOTE]

That's right; the trampler has to go through all the toughness in its way before it can spend its remaining power on the player/planeswalker it really wants to damage.

I feel like a horrible person now!

I'm the friend that tells his buddy that his trample damage gets prevented.

Lolz, oh yea, does tempered steel affect the etched champion when he ius protected? I think it does as tempered steel doesnt target it, it is a aoe effect. And also, if i enchant the creature before he is given protection, will the enchantment be canceld once the protection goes on?

[QUOTE=olataro]Lolz, oh yea, does tempered steel affect the etched champion when he ius protected? I think it does as tempered steel doesnt target it, it is a aoe effect. [/quote]

You think right.

Tempered Steel does not damage, enchant, block, or target anything, so protection (debt) won't interfere with it.

[quote]And also, if i enchant the creature before he is given protection, will the enchantment be canceld once the protection goes on?[/QUOTE]

If a permanent is enchanted, and later gains protection against some quality of the Aura enchanting it, that Aura will "fall off."

702.14c A permanent or player with protection can’t be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based action. (See rule 704, “State-Based Actions.”)

The same is true of equipment and fortifications.

Note that this not a function of untargetability; shroud will not cause Auras/Equipment to fall off, because the the Aura/Equipment is not still targeting the creature once it is attached.

Protection goes beyond just untargetability, however, and disallows attachment altogether. (that's the e part in the debt pneumonic device)

Got it. Thnx as always~!