Discussion Forum

[QUOTE=stoic]I'm making a deck around where ancients tread but part of the combo uses Sharuum the Hegemon. Can I when he enters the field, deal the 5 damage to Sharuum and kill it upon entry?[/QUOTE]

Yes. The resolution of the stack will allow you to have it enter, kill it with the triggered blast from W.A.T., and then return it with its ability.

You can also abuse having 2 Sharuums in a similar "delayed stack" style. :D

Sharuum the Hegemon
Where Ancients Tread
[QUOTE=surewhynot]Yes. The resolution of the stack will allow you to have it enter, kill it with the triggered blast from W.A.T., and then return it with its ability.

You can also abuse having 2 Sharuums in a similar "delayed stack" style. :D[/QUOTE]

That doesn't seem right...

pulling out the CompRules:
[QUOTE=MTG Comprehensive Rules]607.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s moved out of the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word “target,” are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally, affecting only the targets that are still legal. If a target is illegal, the spell or ability can’t perform any actions on it or make the target perform any actions.[/QUOTE]

:( sorry you can't return your sphinx to the battle field because it has left the battlefield and went to the graveyard and is therefore no longer in the zone in which it was targeted (You target an ability as it is placed on the stack)

Also, Sharuum the Hegemon is an illegal target in the first place because it is not "In a graveyard" as it enters the battlefield

[QUOTE=SilverTabby]Sharuum the Hegemon
Where Ancients Tread


That doesn't seem right...

pulling out the CompRules:


:( sorry you can't return your sphinx to the battle field because it has left the battlefield and went to the graveyard and is therefore no longer in the zone in which it was targeted (You target an ability as it is placed on the stack)

Also, Sharuum the Hegemon is an illegal target in the first place because it is not "In a graveyard" as it enters the battlefield[/QUOTE]

I remember hearing that you could do some crazy thing with two of them...figured the Where Ancients Tread would work in a similar fashion. Ah hell I'm tired.

There are some tricks you can do. You need two Sharuums, though.

If you have a Sharuum on the 'field, and cast another, then when it enters the battlefield the "legend rule" will send them to the graveyard before the new Sharuum's ability can get on the stack.

So, that ability can target one of the now-dead Sharuums. When it comes back, use its aiblity to bring back the other.

They both die again and their abilities can then target them. So you can just keep going.

Tread then exploits this oscillation. That or Pawn of Ulamog or Genesis Chamber or ...


You need the "legend rule," though; you can't replicate it with, say, "sacrifice a creature:" abilities. Nothing but a state-based action can kill a Sharuum so quickly that its just-triggered ability hasn't even gone to the stack yet, and in this case the "legend rule" is the easiet one to use.

[QUOTE=Aneximines]If you have a Sharuum on the 'field, and cast another, then when it enters the battlefield the "legend rule" will send them to the graveyard before the new Sharuum's ability can get on the stack.[/QUOTE]


hum, I would've assumed that if this was the case then the ability would never get triggered or go on the stack at all.

where does the ability exist after the legend rule state check and prior to it being on the stack?? your description seems to imply an extra 'waiting zone' that duplicates the functionality of the stack.

My take would be that if the ability gets triggered then it goes on the stack as is(including the selection of the target artifact). So either the ability goes on the stack prior to the Sharuums hitting the graveyard(and becoming legal targets for the ability) or the second Sharuum is dead before it's ability can be triggered and put on the stack.

[QUOTE=Aneximines]There are some tricks you can do. You need two Sharuums, though.

If you have a Sharuum on the 'field, and cast another, then when it enters the battlefield the "legend rule" will send them to the graveyard before the new Sharuum's ability can get on the stack.

So, that ability can target one of the now-dead Sharuums. When it comes back, use its aiblity to bring back the other.

They both die again and their abilities can then target them. So you can just keep going.

Tread then exploits this oscillation. That or Pawn of Ulamog or Genesis Chamber or ...


You need the "legend rule," though; you can't replicate it with, say, "sacrifice a creature:" abilities. Nothing but a state-based action can kill a Sharuum so quickly that its just-triggered ability hasn't even gone to the stack yet, and in this case the "legend rule" is the easiet one to use.[/QUOTE]

I used this trick in one of my first decks. 2 Sharrums and a few Glassdust Hulk

[QUOTE=Seras]hum, I would've assumed that if this was the case then the ability would never get triggered or go on the stack at all.

where does the ability exist after the legend rule state check and prior to it being on the stack?? your description seems to imply an extra 'waiting zone' that duplicates the functionality of the stack.

My take would be that if the ability gets triggered then it goes on the stack as is(including the selection of the target artifact). So either the ability goes on the stack prior to the Sharuums hitting the graveyard(and becoming legal targets for the ability) or the second Sharuum is dead before it's ability can be triggered and put on the stack.[/QUOTE]

When a triggered ability's condition is met, the thing that happens immediately is ... nothing at all.

603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.

At this point, the triggered ability is still just a characteristic of the object it's on. It has no independent existence (thus the lack of a need for a psuedo-stack zone).

Triggered abilities must wait before going on the stack. They must wait for the current effect to finish resolving and they must then wait for the state of the game to be checked. Then they go on the stack.

603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.

Only on the stack does the ability exist as an object, with its own characteristics.

It is at this time, when it goes on the stack, that its target is choosen:

603.3d The remainder of the process for putting a triggered ability on the stack is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2c–d.
(601.2c involves choosing targets)

So, where does the "legend rule" come in?

116.2d State-based actions happen automatically when certain conditions are met. See rule 704. They’re dealt with before a player would receive priority. See rule 116.5.

From this and the section I bolded in 603.3, you can see that state-based actions happen before triggered abilities get put on the stack (this is reiterated in 704.3 and elsewhere). The "legend rule," of course, is such an action:

704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
...
704.5k If two or more legendary permanents with the same name are on the battlefield, all are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “legend rule.” If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule doesn’t apply.


So:
- Sharuum A is on the battlefield.
- Sharuum B enters the battlefield. This triggers Sharuum B's ability, which doesn't immediately do anything but will go on the stack the next time a player would recieve priority.
- State-based actions are checked and both Sharuums are sent to your graveyard.
- Waiting triggered abilities - namely Sharuum B's - go on the stack. This is when you choose the target for Sharuum B's ability, and at this point both Sharuums are artifacts in your graveyard and are therefore legal targets.

[QUOTE=Seras]where does the ability exist after the legend rule state check and prior to it being on the stack?? your description seems to imply an extra 'waiting zone' that duplicates the functionality of the stack.[/QUOTE]

Reading back over it, that's a good question. Once an ability triggers, nothing can stop it from (eventually) getting to the stack, but something might happen to the object it's on before then, so where - or perhaps, "what" - is the triggered ability during that little lapse of time?

112.1. An ability can be one of two things:

112.1a An ability is a characteristic an object has that lets it affect the game. An object’s abilities are defined by its rules text or by the effect that created it. ...
112.1b An ability can be an activated or triggered ability on the stack. This kind of ability is an object. (See section 6, “Spells, Abilities, and Effects.”)

So before going on the stack, a triggered ability is a characterstic of an object.

109.1. An object is an ability on the stack, a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, a permanent, or an emblem.

In this case, the object is a card; a card that moves from the battlefield to the graveyard. But,

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are six exceptions to this rule: (none of the exceptions apply here)

So when the object of which the triggered ability is a charactistic leaves the battlefield, it (as that particular object) ceases to exist, and a new object appears in the graveyard.

How, then, can the triggered ability continue to exist, since it is only a characteristic of an object that ceases to exist?

I don't know. It must, otherwise a lot of normal game functionality would break down, but I don't see it spelled out anywhere in the rules.

yes, that's the gap in the mechanics that i couldn't wrap my head around.

but your first post does explain very well how the rules dictate this type of special case should be handled =)