Discussion Forum

Do you mean to ask if controlling two Doubling Seasons does more than just controlling one?

If so, the answer is yes. All Doubling Seasons will effect the counters or tokens independently. So you add a counter to the Thallid during your upkeep; the first Season doubles the quantity of counters; the second Season then modifies the quantity further; the Thallid ends up with four counters.

it's not infinite but the effects of multiple copies are cumulative, yes.

Good because I was worried I might have found something hate play worthy with my friends. So I'm just happen to know on each upkeep i can have 16 counters. Then 36 token for each Thallid I control.

Thank you for helping.

If your opponent is still alive by the time you have 4x Doubling Season in play, it's likely irrelevant how many tokens you can generate ;) But let's assume you do have 4.

Every upkeep you get 16 counters, you're right about that. Now you remove 3 counters (can be done 5 times) to create 5x16 tokens, or 80 tokens per Thalid, not 32 :cool:

Sporoloth Ancient and Sporesower Thallid make this even worse. Assuming 4x Sporesower Thallid and 4x Doubling Season and at least 1x Sporoloth Ancient, each other Thalid would get 80 spore counters per upkeep, which translates to 640 tokens per Thalid (but only 512 per Sporesower). *evil*

lmao :)

man that would be a fun game, having 4 doubling seasons out and just going for it, abuse after abuse, calculator next to you, Gaea's Cradle on the board, kicking Rite of replication, put another Bolas out, Anger in the yard... whoora

...echoing truth.

=)

You know what's really fun? Animating Doubling Season (like say with Opalescence) and enchanting it with Followed Footsteps.

On the next turn you get two more Seasons, for 3 total.

On the turn after that you get 8 more, for 11 total.

On the turn after that you get 2048 more, for a total of 2059.

On the turn after that, you're looking at more than 66,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Seasons.

On the turn after that...

I will have to add that to my thallid deck. that is pure Evil! How did you calculate that, Anyways? Paradox haze. Also, I'm geussing here, but since it uses the stack to put tokens on the feild, wouldn't it try to finish, but since it keeps putting down enchantments that double the amount put onto the battlefield, wouldn't it keep almost reaching the end, but there's still that unactivated enchatment to go through?

[QUOTE=jacktheinvisible]I will have to add that to my thallid deck.[/quote]

Heh, be warned, it isn't at all practical (I said it was "fun" not "effective").

[quote]that is pure Evil! How did you calculate that, Anyways?[/QUOTE]

Well, the base effect is just generating one token, so the number of tokens that end up entering the battlefield is 2^n, where n is the number of Doubling Seasons.

So on the first turn, you get 2^1 = 2 new tokens, plus the one that was already there makes 3.

Then next turn you get 2^3 = 8 new tokens, for 11 total.

Then, 2^11 = 2048 (I should know that, but at this point I started using my computer's basic Calculator program just to make sure), for 2059 total.

And 2^2059 is about 6.6185228434044942951864067458396*10^619, according to my computer (obviously it rounds at some point; I then rounded it to the first two significant digits).

Then, 2^(6.6185228434044942951864067458396*10^619) is too much for my little program to handle, and, I'm pretty sure, is too large to describe any number of actual objects in the observed universe.

[QUOTE=jacktheinvisible]Also, I'm geussing here, but since it uses the stack to put tokens on the feild, wouldn't it try to finish, but since it keeps putting down enchantments that double the amount put onto the battlefield, wouldn't it keep almost reaching the end, but there's still that unactivated enchatment to go through?[/QUOTE]

No. Only Followed Footstep's triggered ability uses the stack. Doubling Season has a replacement ability that modifies the effect of the Footstep's ability as it resolves.

By the time the resulting new Seasons are on the battlefield that effect has already happened, so they won't effect the process until the next turn when Footsteps triggers again.

yYou say it is not practical. In the deck i'm building, it will fit right in. Practically the entire deck is an impractical combo.

[QUOTE=Aneximines]You know what's really fun? Animating Doubling Season (like say with Opalescence) and enchanting it with Followed Footsteps.[/QUOTE]

This just made my day! awesome, you rule man! Lol
Most original far fetched hilarious combo I've ever seen. I want to actually play this even if only to make people shit their pants laughing, I'm so going to order Opalescence!!

[QUOTE=Seth]This just made my day! awesome, you rule man! Lol
Most original far fetched hilarious combo I've ever seen. I want to actually play this even if only to make people shit their pants laughing, I'm so going to order Opalescence!![/QUOTE]

You took the words right out of my mou... fingers? I didn't know about Opalescence until this thread.. Making a deck out of it is now on my top-things-to-do list, right after learning how to knit so I can make a beanie cap with the Fibonacci sequence embedded into it's stitching.

Well, if y'all really want to, consider the card Replenish.

There are lots of efficient ways to fill your graveyard (Hermit Druid, Mesmeric Orb (especially with a self-untapper like Aphetto Alchemist or Seeker of Skybreak), dredge cards like Darkblast and Life from the Loam, that sort of thing), and then you can Replenish for all sorts of wins.

Replenishing out Doubling Season, Followed Footsteps, and Opalescence all at the same time lets you set up the combo in one swoop for 4 mana (it would be a bit tedious to prove that this works, but I could do it if pressed).

(another potential Replenish win: Opalescence + Day of the Dragons + Pandemonium)

What's also fun is when you march of the machines a prototype portal imprinted with memnite when intruder alarm is in play.

[QUOTE=SavajCabbaj]If your opponent is still alive by the time you have 4x Doubling Season in play, it's likely irrelevant how many tokens you can generate ;) But let's assume you do have 4.

Every upkeep you get 16 counters, you're right about that. Now you remove 3 counters (can be done 5 times) to create 5x16 tokens, or 80 tokens per Thalid, not 32 :cool:

Sporoloth Ancient and Sporesower Thallid make this even worse. Assuming 4x Sporesower Thallid and 4x Doubling Season and at least 1x Sporoloth Ancient, each other Thalid would get 80 spore counters per upkeep, which translates to 640 tokens per Thalid (but only 512 per Sporesower). *evil*[/QUOTE]

Sorry I forgot to tell you that I usually run a stall deck and Sporoloth Ancient
>_>

I'm lost, I think I'm doing the math wrong.

Doubling season says the amount of stuff gets DOUBLED, not squared. So would not this happen instead:

N*XN, where X is the number of doubling seasons on the field and N is the number of new doubling season coming into play each turn?

That means this would cause:

1 doubling season with followed footsteps

N*XN: 1*1(1): 1 doubling season comes into play
then. Making 2 total.

N*XN: 1*(2)(1): 2 doubling seasons come into play, Making 4 total

N*XN: 1*(4)(1): 8 doubling seasons come into play, Making 8 total

etc.

am I missing something?



Oh, and imagine this combo with Paradox Haze!

[QUOTE=The Night Angel]1 doubling season with followed footsteps

N*XN: 1*1(1): 1 doubling season comes into play
then. Making 2 total.[/quote]

Wait a minute. If Footsteps would put a token onto the field, and there's a Doubling Season on the field, wouldn't in make two tokens instead? Because, you know, Doubling Season doubles the number of tokens effects produce.

Therefore, it would be 2 new Season tokens, for 3 Seasons total.

[quote]N*XN: 1*(2)(1): 2 doubling seasons come into play, Making 4 total[/quote]

At this point there are 3 Doubling Seasons on the field. That means that if an effect would produce one or more tokens, the number of tokens is doubled, doubled again, and doubled again (doubled once for each Season), which comes to times 8. So instead of making one token, the Footsteps makes 8, and since there were already 3 Seasons on the field, we're now up to 11.

etc.

[QUOTE]Doubling season says the amount of stuff gets DOUBLED, not squared. So would not this happen instead:

N*XN, where X is the number of doubling seasons on the field and N is the number of new doubling season coming into play each turn?[/QUOTE]

If X is the number of Doubling Seasons on the field, and an effect produces one or more tokens, the number of tokens it actually ends up producing is doubled X times; in other words, the number of tokens is increased by a factor of 2^X (this is not squaring, which would look more like X^2).

Since Footsteps only makes one token, the number of new Seasons entering the field each turn is simply 2^X, where X is the number of Seasons already on the field. So the total number you'll end up with that turn is 2^X + X.



Late edit:

It's occurred to me that it isn't really my math you disagree with so much as my interpretation of how the effects of multiple Doubling Seasons accumulate.

The position I'm about to defend is that each application of the effect takes into account the previous applications. That, for example, if there are three Doubling Seasons in play, and an resolving spell/ability would produce n counters/tokens, that first one of the Seasons' effect will apply, doubling the number (to 2n), then another will apply, doubling that new number (to 4n), and then the last will apply, doubling that number (to 8n).

Short version:
Consider this "Rulings" entry listed in the Gatherer entry for Doubling Season:
If there are two Doubling Seasons on the battlefield, then the number of tokens or counters is four times the original number. If there are three on the battlefield, then the number of tokens or counters is eight times the original number.

Long version:
(rules link can be found here)

First, let's establish what sort of ability Doubling Season has.

604. Handling Static Abilities

604.1. Static abilities do something all the time rather than being activated or triggered. They are written as statements, and they’re simply true.

This is case with Doubling Season. It has two static abilities, that differ only in that one applies to counters and another to tokens. Each has the same mathematical effect.

Speaking of its effect...

611. Continuous Effects

611.1. A continuous effect modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period.
...
611.3. A continuous effect may be generated by the static ability of an object.
...
611.3b The effect applies at all times that the permanent generating it is on the battlefield or the object generating it is in the appropriate zone.

... it has a continuous effect. More specifically,

614. Replacement Effects

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.

614.1a Effects that use the word “instead” are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word “instead” to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

Doubling Season has a replacement effect.

So, if several replacement effects try to effect the same event, how is that handled?

613. Interaction of Continuous Effects

613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
...

Although this does not directly apply to the case at hand, it's clear that they mean for continuous effects (of which replacement effects are subset) to apply "one after another" in some order, each taking into account the effect preceding it.

So, when they say of replacement effects,

614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each event.

it seems that each of those "one opportunities" is taken one after the other. This interpretation is bolstered by the Example which immediately follows this rule:

Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads “If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead.” A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage—not just 4, and not an infinite amount.

So here there are two doubling effects. The example suggests that one of them applies, doubling the damage from 2 to 4, and then the other applies doubling the 4 damage to 8.

QED