Discussion Forum

1) Renegade Doppelganger does NOT enter the battlefield as Lumengrid Drake. Renegade Doppelganger had to have already been in play, then you cast Lumengrid Drake. THAT enters the battlefield to which Renegade Doppelganger can trigger and become a copy but he already entered play. Metalcraft or not, the Doppelganger cannot bounce a creature.

2) Tel-Jilad Chosen's "Pro artifacts" doesn't work with equipments. She herself cannot be targeted to be equipped and if she blocks a non-artifact creature with an equipment on it, the buff from the equipment is still incorporated.

3) Yes, you can target a permanent that is already tapped. That's why frost titan is so amazing. It can completely eliminate any one permanent aspect of the game such as say, the one land that's supplying you with a specific color of mana OR a creature that they really don't want them to swing with (Such as Primeval).


Like I say with all my rulings, they're not official. I am not a judge, just a player so I very well may be wrong.

As far as what you said on the Doppleganger, that's what I stated. That he was already on the field, but since it becomes a copy of said creature, that's technically a new creature hitting the battlefield instantly; just seems like it would proc the Metal Craft granted you had 3 +artifacts. I understand that he's a creature that's already on the battlefield, but the idea is that he becomes a copy of XXX creature, I dunno...

Hmm, I dunno if I believe the Tel-Jilad info of yours. No offense, but if it has protection from Artifacts, there has to be some kind of consequence or situation involved blocking/attacking a creature w/ Artifact on it.

And for the last part, I had looked through some previous posts here in the Rulings section, it seems to me that the general belief is that in order for a spell to resolve, it must meet all required pre-reqs or else the spell fails/fizzles, so I don't know if that's right now actually.

I dunno, I do appreciate the effort, I'd just like some more input from possibly some Judges or more veteran players w/ a better understanding of the MtG core-engine mechanics. Surprised only one person has said anything.

But thanks again! I'll definately ponder this some more & try to get to the bottom of these.

1) ruling from the gatherer: If Renegade Doppelganger becomes a copy of another creature, that doesn't count as having a creature enter the battlefield. Renegade Doppelganger was already on the battlefield; it only changed its characteristics. If Renegade Doppelganger gains any enters-the-battlefield triggered abilities, they won't do anything. The same is true of any "as [this creature] enters the battlefield" or "[this creature] enters the battlefield with" abilities.

2) the one dealing damage is the creature, the one blocking is the creature so the. tel jilad has protection from artifacts, not creatures. equipment cant target the jilad, jilad can not be blocked by artifact creatures, but tel jilad can still be blocked by a creature w/ equipmemt attached to it because the equipment is not targeting the jilad.

3) yep you could still target a tapped card

It's your call bud but I'm good friends with 3 different judges, not saying I'm right but I'm just saying I know a bit more than the average player.

Renegade Doppelganger never "instantly hits the field" as a different creature. Think of it more as transforming. It never leaves play, therefore it cannot re-enter.

Protection can be summed up in the case of Tel Jilad Fallen using the word "DEBT". Tel-Jilad Fallen simply cannot be Damaged, Enchanted, Blocked, or Targeted by any artifact. The artifact itself isn't doing the damage, only increasing to it. It's obviously not being enchanted by the artifact. The artifact itself isn't blocking it, the creature body is. It's not being targeted either.

The tapping of the creature is not a cost therefore it doesn't have to be "paid"/"completed"/"accomplished". It targets any permanent, not any UNTAPPED permanent. I brought this up with the local FNM judge when someone used Lorthos, the Tidemaker on my friend, thinking that you can't tap and "freeze" permanents that were already tapped.

I don't know if this statement matters a whole lot, but Scotty's right.

I've used DEBT to help reinforce what protection does, but some players (myself included on certain sleep deprived days) still confuse the acronym. It is important to remember two things about protection (and the acronym).

1) It's Damage (not Destruction). It's important to stress that, because I've heard players recite it as "Destruction, ... " and that is not correct.

2) It's Enchant / Equip. This extends beyond just targeting in that if a creature (or permanent) gains protection from a source that is already enchanting or equipping it, the aura / equipment will fall off (and in the case of auras, they'll go to the graveyard).

Just thought it'd be worth mentioning since DEBT was brought up and my playgroup has experienced problems with the acronym.

Hope this helps!

@ Savaj

Does that mean that if I were to equip something then afterwards give it protection from artifacts the equipment falls off? I never knew that cause protection doesn't void being equipped to my knowledge and it's already been targeted for equipping. I'm curious as to what happens xD

I'm pretty sure it does, Scotty, but I'm not 100% sure. MtG frustrates me in that regard, lol. I'm usually a rules lawyer but MtG is so comprehensive and I only play casually, so even after a decade plus, I'm still learning the rules XD

Much like if a creature gains protection from a source and is enchanted by an aura of that source, that aura will fall off even though it's already been targeted when the aura was cast. I don't see why equipments would work any differently.

EDIT: Just looked it up, confirmed. Here's a direct quote:

702.14d A permanent with protection can't be equipped by Equipment that have the stated quality or fortified by Fortifications that have the stated quality. Such Equipment or Fortifications become unattached from that permanent as a state-based action, but remain on the battlefield. (See rule 704, "State-Based Actions.")

Go to http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20110401.txt and search within the page for 702.14. Protection for the comprehensive rules.