Discussion Forum

no, those effects are "until end of turn"...if you end the turn, then those effects end.

sundial only let's you get around "at the beginning of the next end step" triggers, not "until the end of turn" ones.

What Seras claims is wrong. Sundial lets you keep the creatures you gain control of with Traitorous Blood.

This is how:

- Steal creature with Traitorous Blood
- At the beginning of the end step let the delayed triggered ability of Traitorous Blood go on the stack (the ability that says 'gain control of target creature until end of turn').
- Now with the ability on the stack end the turn. The ability has triggered so it won't trigger again but sundial removes it from the stack before it resolves so you permanently gain control of the creature.

To re-iterate: Traitorous Blood is "until end of turn" not "at the beginning of next end step"(or "at end of turn", as it used to be called). this is the crucial difference here.

"Until end of turn" effects stop during the clean-up step, not the end step.

[QUOTE]514. Cleanup Step --
514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. [/QUOTE]

If you're going to contradict both me and the actual text on the card/oracle, please refer to specific rules or rulings that back up your assertion.

well if it doesn't use the stack it doesn't work. I thought the M10 rules where there to make magic easier for new players, making such a huge difference between end of turn and start of the end step doesn't make sense... o well at least I've learned something new :)

well it did it make it somewhat easier...the difference between "until end of turn" and "at end of turn" was a lot less noticeable compared to "at the beginning of the next end step" =)

sundial is one of few cards that actually interacts with such delayed triggered abilities, I never really noticed there was a difference in how it was written because it was never relevant. it does have a certain charm knowing all these subtle little differences, sometimes it even wins tournament matches when knowledge and abuse of certain rulings gives you an edge.

ya I had seen ppl doing something similar with other "gain control" type of effects(it does work with some...just can't think of which ones right now)...but it's the 'keeps trample' part that made me stop and go back to dig up more info on how all those tricks play out.

seemed a little too ridiculous lol

Traitorous Blood

The card says "Gain control of target creature until end of turn. Untap it. It gains trample and haste until end of turn."

Which means you lose control of the creature doing the cleanup step after the end step has started. Notice how Sundial of the Infinite actually says in the reminder text, "(Exile all spells and abilities on the stack. Discard down to your maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)"

Wildman274, I believe what you were attempting to do, was to respond to a delayed trigger, which is created when card text states "At the begining of the next end step..." such as it does on mimic vat and glimmerpoint stag

"Until end of turn" and "At the beggning of the next end step" may seem similar, but happen at slightly different times. Just be sure you know which you are dealing with when wielding the mighty Sundial of the Infinite. (Btw, Sudden Disappearance and Sundial of the Infinite are best friends.)

you could, however, keep the creature you take with an act of treason, or anything like it, with bazaar trader. you take it, then give it to yourself. Admitedly bazaar trader isn't standard legal right now though so... yeah... :(

[QUOTE=Asceric]
Notice how Sundial of the Infinite actually says in the reminder text, "(Exile all spells and abilities on the stack. Discard down to your maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)"
[/QUOTE]

This. It's mostly useful as protection from an unexpected instant you're opponent plays, Like doom blade or ambush viper (assuming it doesnt happen during combat)

[QUOTE=Seth]it does have a certain charm knowing all these subtle little differences[/QUOTE]

It is in this spirit that I bring you this gatherer ruling for Sundial of the Infinite:
[quote]If any triggered abilities do trigger during this process, they're put onto the stack during the cleanup step. If this happens, players will have a chance to cast spells and activate abilities, then there will be another cleanup step before the turn finally ends.[/quote]

Just something on-topic that I thought you guys might enjoy. There are cards that have abilities that trigger during the clean up step. There's 14 of them...and they're really old, lol.

Anywho, enjoy :)

Just to be sure i will post some cards, just tell me if they are combo with the sundial of the infinite.

Seance
Splinter Twin
Sudden Disappearance (this one would be mind blowing)
Extractor Demon(all creatures with unaerth so Sedris, the Traitor King would be fun.)

But then wouldn't they just finish that effect on my opponents beggining end step?

no combo. Sundial brings the turn directly to the end phase. it doesn't stop the end phase

@Portugaru: You can use the Sundial to do what you're thinking, but you have to do it just right. I'll use Sudden Disappearance as an example.

Here is a ruling from SD's Gatherer page:
[quote]If Sudden Disappearance's delayed triggered ability is countered or otherwise removed from the stack after triggering, the exiled cards will remain in exile indefinitely. The delayed triggered ability will only trigger once.[/quote]

What you would have to do is wait until the delayed triggered ability triggers and is put on the stack, then activate Sundial in response to the trigger. So the trigger won't resolve, and it won't trigger again. This goes for any effect that sets up a delayed triggered ability. Look for the words "at the next (specific part of turn)".

thank you very much, i though so

Wouldn't conjurer's closet allow you to keep the creature in that case?

[QUOTE=TalkingMuffin]Wouldn't conjurer's closet allow you to keep the creature in that case?[/QUOTE]

In which case? I'm not quite sure what you're asking?