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-1/-1 counters vs. +1/+1 counters

I saw some people arguing about this on a decks comments, is this really true that -1-1 counters and +1+1 counters cancel eachother out?
If that's true, wouldn't you be able to win real easily with hex parasite and hatebound flayer with just 4 mana? If so thats pretty cool and i didn't know that rule. Some clarification on this would be much appreciated.






"No, that is not true. -1/-1 counters negate +1/+1 counters. If you add a +1/+1 counter, then add a -1/-1 counter, the creature has 0 counters remaining.

they even made a neat little card to show how it works:
http://www.abugames.com/images/products/tipstrickscards/counters_tip_magic_online.jpg

and here's the official rules:
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it."
Posted 02 May 2012 at 05:28

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12 replies

yes they cancel eachother out. and yes there is potential for a lot of combo's and interactions.
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Posted 02 May 2012 at 08:19

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huh, well that's nice to know, that opens up a whole new area of combos now. Thank you for the clarification on this seth.
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Posted 02 May 2012 at 12:46

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I have one more question then, If a creature has both undying and persist, when it goes to graveyard does it come back with no counters on it? as in could you infinitely make it go to the graveyard and come back because the persist and undying would both activate, which would cancel each counter out it comes back with?
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Posted 02 May 2012 at 13:57

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I'm not 100% sure but both persist and undying would go on the stack in the order of your choice and I think only the last on the stack will resolve and the other will fizzle as the target is no longer in the yard
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Posted 03 May 2012 at 13:17

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hmmm thats interesting, so if you get to choose which one activates, you could still pretty much infinitely cycle them by switching which ability activates each time and canceling out the opposite counter each time ( first choose persist, then next time choose undying so it cancels out to 0 counters). Thats cool, thanks seth
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Posted 03 May 2012 at 17:08

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ya, you just alternate between them and the creature keeps coming back.
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Posted 03 May 2012 at 18:16

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But I don't think that's the case. As triggered abilities, they may resolve simeltaneously. Actually... that produces the same effect. You would constantly get back your 3/3 as a 3/3. Like a reassembling skeleton.
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Posted 03 May 2012 at 22:16

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when a player controls two abilities that trigger simultaneously, that player decides in which order they go on the stack. multiple abilities never resolve at the same time...the stack only goes through one effect at a time.

so after the first one resolves, the second ability fizzles because it no longer has a legal target since the creature has already been returned to the battlefield.
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Posted 04 May 2012 at 00:35

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Chewrida: Actually the +1/+1 and -1/-1 tokens are irrelevant as they disappear when the creature leaves the battlefield. A creature that leaves play and the returns to play somehow is concidered a new creature/card. It's previous state no longer applies.
Anyway it still works like you hoped for. If you choose persist the first time it dies it returns with a -1/-1 counter. This means it can no longer persist but undying still works. Next time it dies the undying triggers and the creature would return with a +1/+1 to the battlefield (the -1/-1 is gone because the creature left the battlefield). Now the undying stops working but persist is an option again and so on. With something to sacrifice to like Greater Gargadon you would be able to go infinite.

PS: thanks for the second opinion Seras :)
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Posted 04 May 2012 at 06:58

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I was thinking mikaeus the unhallowed as the central card and a bunch of persist like murderous redcap, if i add in anything like gargadon then thats a 9/7 quickly brought out if you didnt lose already from the infinite damage dealt from cycling redcap in and out of the graveyard. Thanks everyone for the info on this
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Posted 05 May 2012 at 19:49

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[QUOTE=Chewrida]and here's the official rules:
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it."[/QUOTE]It's kind of weird about exactly when that works, because state based effects don't all have the same priority, and the order they're checked in will determine exactly if and when the counters are removed. The counters come lower in state based priority than 0 toughness, so if you have a creature with a +1/+1 counter and 2 or more -1/-1 counters on it with 0 toughness, the creature will die before the counters are removed.
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Posted 23 May 2012 at 21:03

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[QUOTE=vxicepickxv]It's kind of weird about exactly when that works, because state based effects don't all have the same priority, and the order they're checked in will determine exactly if and when the counters are removed. The counters come lower in state based priority than 0 toughness, so if you have a creature with a +1/+1 counter and 2 or more -1/-1 counters on it with 0 toughness, the creature will die before the counters are removed.[/QUOTE]

There is no priority among state based actions. All state based actions are check, and then they all happen as one action. If a creature has both +1/+1 and -1/-1, and has 0 toughness then it will die at the same time the counters are removed. Because the creature dies, the counters being removed is usually irrelevant, but the game still tries to do both.
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Posted 24 May 2012 at 16:19

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