Discussion Forum

[QUOTE=Aztecha]...while he gets 2 life for each token coming into play and generating infinite life.[/quote]

There's a rule out there that says you can't repeat a series of non-mandatory actions an infinite amount of times. You can offer a shortcut, stating how many times you wish to repeat these actions, but you have to pick a number you can represent.

[quote]716.1b Occasionally the game gets into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated indefinitely (thus creating a “loop”). In that case, the shortcut rules can be used to determine how many times those actions are repeated without having to actually perform them, and how the loop is broken.[/quote]

The last part implies the loop must be broken. In a tournament, if you weren't to break the loop at some point, you'd be penalized for slow play.


[quote]now my question here is he says since I trigger the infinite loop I automatically lose the game because I can't stop it but he can make infinite tokens to gain the lost life back in response to my abilities. but he also says that once I "initiate an infinite loop I instantly lose." and that "my abilities never play because I start the infinite loop and I'm no longer in the game after I start it."
How does this work exactly? He said that if 2 players have an infinite loop going in the game at the same time it's considered a draw, but because he's responding with something and mine can't stop, wouldn't I technically win because he's constantly using an activated abilities VS my trigger abilities?[/QUOTE]

As far as your mandatory triggers are concerned, here's this rule:

[quote]716.4. If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game is a draw. [/quote]

The only thing I know for sure is that you can't loose this game. Either your opponent looses the game because your mandatory triggers deplete his life, or it's a draw because he keeps repeating his life-gain loop.

If I were a Judge (which I'm not, I may be missing something, and I realize this is a casual game) but I'd probably rule that you win since his actions aren't mandatory and all he can do is stall.

This is actually a really interesting situation, figuring out the various stack manipulations that are possible gave me quite a headache lol.

It totally does come down to a judge ruling because as efinmiller pointed out, all your opponent can do is clog the stack, at some point he has to stop and then your triggers will keep resolving until he's dead.

but ya, i'm not sure if this would be your win or a draw.

I'm leaning towards draw.

I checked w/ some others, and they said you win, Aztecha. Since it was a casual game, I guess he could just keep stalling until you scooped. But in a tournament setting if he did that, he'd get a warning for slow play, if not DQ'd for stalling.

They equated this to being targeted w/ a Lightning Bolt when you only have 3 life left, and just never passing priority.

im not sure the comparison is valid, since 'not passing priority' is literally stalling...it's refusing to take a required action to let the game progress.

in this case, the opponent is taking legal actions, and more importantly, they are not trivial actions..they are actions that are keeping him alive.

So i checked with a level 1 judge and he said that if a judge was called over, the judge would ask the spawnsire player to give a set number of times he's going through his loop, because his ability has to be triggered and yours is mandatory.

so you do win the game.

Thank you kindly for replying to my thread, and yes it is a casual game, but this leads me to ask, where did my friend get the idea of "if you do an infinite loop you lose automatically."
So in both tournament standards and casual standards I would win because he's prolonging the game with responses to counteract my effect?

"prolonging the game" doesn't really come into it.

if a loop is not mandatory, then it's not infinite: you have to state how many times you want to do it.

you can set it to 20 billion, but you still have to set a real, finite number of iterations.

So a loop with exquisite blood and sanguine bond will not make a player lose? I was told that any loop of mandatory actions, with no option to cease, would make the player lose. Hm... I am really confused...

:(

104.4b If a game that's not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a "loop" of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don't result in a draw.

so, correct me if I am wrong... It would make the game a draw.

That's what the rule that Seras quoted says, yes.

I'm sorry, we should clarify on this. Normally when you have a continuous loop of manditory actions, the game is considered a draw unless the loop can somehow be broken. In the case of one player having both Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood on the battlefield, the loop will be broken once the opponent has 0 or less life. Thus the person with both those enchantments will win.

The original confusion came about because the opponent was able to complete a series of optional actions that would gain them as much life as that person needed. Since you can only preform a loop of optional actions a finite number of times, the mandatory actions from Bond and Blood will continue after the optional loop, and thus win the game for the OP regardless of how many times the optional loop is repeated.

The way i know the rules, if a loop is mandatory and infinite the game is a draw, but due to the way the stack works, I'm pretty sure that you would win.

This is what i think happens;

If there is multiple ability/spell/whatever on the stack (lets call them actions cause i cant remember the official term), and both players pass priority, the first one resolves. after it resolves you check if anyone has lost the game, then put any triggered abilities on the stack, then the active player gains priority. if both players pass priority then the next thing happens in the combo, and so forth.

So there are 5 ways to stop an infinite mandatory combo;

1) Someone concedes (i have no idea why someone would take this option over option 5, but its possible).
2) Someone wins due to the combo.
3) Someone casts a spell/activates an ability/taps a mana source/whatever, that stops the combo from working or ends the game (for instance, your opponent could cast naturalize).
4) One of the players necessary for the combo dies.
5) If none of the above happen game is a draw.

In your case you win because your combo repeats, checking at every step if someone has died, and finally the opponent loses their last life, along with the game, and you win.

If the opponent(s) have a non-mandatory combo that counters yours, but is their only chance to stop you, they will be kicked for time wasting, or just accept defeat. if their combo is mandatory then the game is a draw.

I know the rules pretty well, but I'm not a judge or anything, so I'm not 100% sure.

Hope i helped:)