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big post dude :)

- the vault and the forum are 2 seperate sites/technologies, there is no connection. So you need an account for both. here is a great alternative site for deck sharing: http://deckstats.net/

about the deck, you have so many issues I don't know where to start

- format: you speak about casual but hint towards tournament. The manabase you play makes the deck very expensive and if you would match this deck with a somewhat optimized deck of equal prize you wouldn't stand much of a chance of winning games. But lets assume it's casual and people in your group don't play very competitive games so we can address the next issues.

- you talk about 20 land in a 63 card deck, that's 32% land, that's about enough to run spells of casting cost (CC) 1 to 2 maybe one or two CC3 spells in the mix but that's it.
You're not playing cantripts and you're not running fetchland which means you have no control over how your deck plays out what so ever. Your deck will play you and not the other way round.
On top of that you're playing spells you're never going to be able to cast like Niv Mizzet, Staff of Nin, Past in Flames, Yawgmoth's Will, Time Warp....

You need to change your appraoch to deckbuilding. Figur out what you want to do. You want to make a gelectrode burn deck, cut down the curve to CC1-3, play a maximum of 3 colors and push that deck full of cantrips and burn spells and maybe some cheap counterspells like spell pierce and daze, maybe force of will if you have it. Start playing fetchland because without it you can play all the duals in the world, your deck will not work well. You say bloodmoon is a problem, what about wasteland or strip mine possibly combined with life from the loam or crucible of worlds and knight of the reliquary. What about someone tapping your land every turn in your upkeep with rishadan port color screwing you?
If you're playing magic, you need to focus your strategy either by being faster then your opponent or by disrupting or controlling their strategy.

I played magic a ton back in the 90's but got out of it. I am definately NOT playing the tournaments. I only have the expensive cards because I like to collect them, and I play them sleeved against casual friends.

I don't expect many, if any, of my friends to be running Legacy tournament decks, but at the same time I do want to make this deck better. I haven't playtested it and I'm pretty sure I can cut it down to 60 cards with 22-23 mana pretty easily.

I don't see why I won't be able to play past in flames or yawmoth's though, I mean they're only a 3-mana spell, and many of our home games run easily into turn 7-9, sometimes 10+ although rarely.

We played a game the other night where I had nothing but red burns, blue counterspells, and a couple timely reinforcements in my deck, and the power swung back and forth a few times before the game ended.

I guess I just don't get why fetchlands are so great, unless you're including them on top of your land mix, because it seems to me that having a fetchland in your hand and having to sac it to pull out another land just puts you 1 card down. So unless I'm playing a drawing deck it just seems like I'm going to be card-short often.

Maybe I've just been out of magic too long to see the benefit of playing fetchlands, especially in games that nobody is going to win before turn 6...

Plus, strip mine is limited to only 1 per deck, so even if they had life from the loam they're going to somehow get that combo out every time? I guess if they're playing a straight land destruction deck, but if that's the case it's someone outside my circle of friends lol. Besides, strip mine is limited to 1 per deck isn't it?

I only mention bloodmoon, which I know is more of a tourney thing, because my one bud went and bought it just to use against me lol, which is also why I was playing R/U with no duals in that deck at the time.

Im working on a deck around this guy http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewCard_Popup.aspx?CardName=Gwafa%20Hazid,%20Profiteer&Edition=CON&Print=1

I'd prefer this dude over pacifism, cuz even with gwafa out of game the bribery counters still remain. Sure there's a big drawback, but im running telepathy and meddling mage in the same deck to add serious control.

There's a lot of things going on in your deck, I dont see it as a bad thing, as long as your satisfied with the outcome and enjoy playing the deck. I'm also a guy who used to play this game back in mid nineties, then forgot about it, and got back collecting cards and eventually building decks last fall. I play casually with my friends, and I try to create decks that are somewhat inexpensive, and most of all fun to play with, that being totally personal. I do have decks that run cards 4x4x4x4x4x4....., but that is just awfully boring to play most of the time, going for that/those same combo/s over and over again. Theme decks with a different variety of creatures, like vamps, demons, elfs, angels, u name it, are a blast to play, when you're not competing on any sort of level.

I dunno, maybe wanna cut down in manacost on the solemn offerings? add disenchants instead if you're not gonna profit from the lifegain to combo with something else?

Have u thought of Silence? Or maybe add 1 mana W exiles (Path to exile, Reciprocate) instead of Pacisifisms? or simply go with a couple of Oblivion rings to get remove any threat.

Ive never had niv-mizzet or seen anybody play a deck running it, but wouldnt u benefit from having a couple of..say Divinations or Think twices in there? or Ponders for that matter to get a good start. :)

I'd prolly pull Lighting helix out, though I really like the card, especially in a life gain R/W lifegain deck, but maybe u would have more use of a mono red burn or some blue card draws?

Some good food for thought there, thanks.

I could swap out the Helixes for Incinerates.... it's just hard to give up the 3 life when the mana cost is essentially the same.

The only reason I even have black in the deck is for Demonic Tutor, which is extremely hard to give up. It basically duplicates every card in my deck, so if I draw it, I've just drawn any card I need. If Niv-Mizzet is already in my hand, I can use it to pull of of the Staffs of Nin, or a Dual Casting, or a creature if needed, or a time warp if I put them in, or a past in flames, well... you get my drift. It's hard to give up the tiny bit of black in the deck since demonic is so friggin sweet. Otherwise I'd just reduce it to a Red/White/Blue deck and streamline it a bit.

I do probably need to tune down the casting costs, as I can definately see getting mana screwed the first 3 turns pretty easily, but other than that I can see it working in my home games.

As for deck costs, my buddies don't mind because I never use those expensive cards to build a deck that can win turn 2 or 3 like most legacy tournament decks. This deck is a prime example. It's not optimized but that's kinda the point. I want a deck that's gonna maybe take an early lead, then fall behind, only to pull a win with a dual casted time warp or lightning helix at the brink of death. Or that gets mana screwed the first 3 or 4 turns, only to come back huge once I get land in play. These are the types of games my circle plays. Nobody ever just dominates anyone and wins before the game even starts....

I used the staffs of nin instead of howling mines b/c I like that I get an extra card every turn but my opponent does not. The howling mines I've used recently have benefitted my opponent as much as me. I keep them around just in case I build a blue mill deck at some point.

I played back in the beginning days as well, then stopped until around Ravnica I think, played my first tournament when Lorwyn came out.

There's nothing wrong with the cards you play, it's just the way you hit or mis landdrops and having the color you need when you need it seems very inconsistent. I'm used to building decks where I'm in full control of what my deck does each turn. Fetchlands are the key and I'll try to explain why.
I don't know if you played brainstorm back in the early days but we joked about how terrible it was to know how bad your next two draws are going to be. This was because our decks were really terrible and brainstorm just showed us there were no solutions even 3 cards down.
These days brainstorm is concidered to be the most powerful card in legacy, combined with fetchland it often feels like ancestral recall.

Lets say this is your mana base

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
3 Tundra
4 Scalding tarn
4 Flooded Strand

Which would be a pretty typical legacy landbase. It plays basic lands because of wasteland which is legal in legacy (where stripmine is banned and like you say restricted in vintage) and has a huge impact on the game.
At the start of the game you really want that fetchland and some kind of brainstorm effect (brainstorm or ponder).

You play land, preffably a basic Island because that enables all your cantrips and pass the turn. Turn 2 you play fetchland and pass the turn. (This is a typical controlish opening, obviously aggro would not play like this but it's very typical for legacy tournaments). If you have the brainstorm you are in a very good situation. You have 6 cards in your hand and 2 mana allowing you to play most answers in your deck. If your opponent does something critical you can respond to that, if not you can still play brainstorm end of turn.
So he plays something and you either fetch the land you need to make your play this turn or to counter whatever he plays or somehow interact with it. In this case the fetchland gives you the choice of mana color and it has the additional effect of reducing your deck by one land which is nice mid game when you want to be drawing business and not land.
Anyway the second option is to braintorm with the 1 open blue mana, draw 3, put the 2 least useless cards back on top and then use your fetchland. Now what you did is you were holding 8 cardsand chose the 6 best and got rid of the two others and shuffled them back in your deck. This is very powerfull, it totally shapes your hand and gives you a lot of control over your deck at instant speed.
Ponder is likewise powerful, it has the downside of being sorcery speed but it has a build in shuffle effect so you don't need the fetchland if the top 3 cards don't give you the answers you need to interact with the current situation.

That's basically what fetchland does. It fixes color, it allows you to get basic land even if you play only 2 or 3 such lands at a moment you want to play it safe and don't need a dual at that time, it interacts with library manipulation (brainstorm, ponder, scroll rack, sensei's diving top, Jace, The Mindsculptor...) and it removes land from your deck which is something most decks want.

The reason I said Yawgmoth's will is unplayable in your deck is because it is 3 mana + whatever you want to play which makes it high cost. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome spell but the decks that abuse it do so by chaining Dark Ritual effects and then doing so again with yawgmoth's will making a lot of mana instead of spending it. They usually do this to build up a storm count.
If you play really long games, like multiplayer (in my group games often take 2 hours and more for a single game) then Yawgmoth's will is awesome as well because you have tons of mana.

If you want some staying power you could play a single Reveillark and a Ranger of Eos. Ranger of Eos can fetch 2 Vexing Devils and Reveillark can return 2 Vexing Devils to the field. Yust an idea I'm currently playing with.

here's a quick build

4 Vexing Devil
4 Keldon Marauders
1 Jace's Phantasm
1 Reveillark
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Karmic Guide
4 Gelectrode

4 Ponder
2 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
1 Proclamation of Rebirth

2 Ajani Vengeant

3 Volcanic Island
4 Plateau
2 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains

decklist: http://deck.tk/40o56Znh

It's a version without counterspells, you could easily make it more counter based with spell pierce and maybe a few counterspells.

I think my biggest problem is I'm trying to build a deck that can re-cast my burn spells once they're in the graveyard and have additional drawing power without using Howling Mines since they benefit my opponent. I hate using up my burns and sitting there drawing one card per turn and waiting...

That deck you have there, is that a suggested version of mine or is it a deck you're actually playing/tinkering with?

[QUOTE=lifeexpectancy]That deck you have there, is that a suggested version of mine or is it a deck you're actually playing/tinkering with?[/QUOTE]

That's just a quick rebuild I did for you, I realise it's a big change from what you had but I think it's the type of deck you intended to play. I'm also fairly confident that it will work pretty well (for a first version) as I have quite a bit of experience building and playing this kind of fast and efficient deck.

The 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder solve your I don't want to sit around drawing one card a turn problem. The deck will flow. They also streamline your land drops and this is why I can run casting cost 4 and 5 on a 20 land manabase.
If you however don't play fetchland it might be better to replace brainstorm by something like Preordain that allows you to get rid of unwanted cards just like ponder.

I also threw in some random ideas I was actually playing with myself as I too recently bought a playset of Vexing Devils and I want to abuse the shit out of them. Ranger of Eos and Proclamation of Rebirth seem awesome with Vexing devils. Reveillark and Karmic Guide are an oldtime favourite of mine, they add serious staying power to a deck.

I was also thinking you could play for instance Lightning Angel which is pretty good or maybe a Swans of Bryn Argoll as a one or 2 off is probably insane. You just burn them yourself and turn your lighting bolts into ancestral recalls :)
Anyway lots of stuff to play with. I'm probably going to build a simular deck though mine will be aimed at multiplayer games. Keep me up to date on how it performs if you do decide to build my deck or something simular.

I didn't think of Swans before but now I really like the idea of

Gelectrode
Swans of Bryn Argoll

Tap Gelectrode for damage, play lighting bolt on swans, draw 3 cards, untap Gelectrode, tap for damage (possibly on Swans), draw again, burn burn burn....

Sounds like some really cool ideas. One question though, even with fetchlands, how are you going to be playing 5-mana spells without any mana ramp? Even if you get 5 or 6 lands on the board, that burns all your mana for a full turn. I know adding a single sol ring to my deck never actually solved that problem, but I was working out whether to add other mana ramp into it.

Those angels do sound like a lot of fun, even if I just burn them for 1 or 2 damage to draw additional cards. I may put them in in place of the Staffs of Nin. I would burn the opponnent though. Gelectrode 1 burn to the Swan, then lightning the opponent to untap, and burn the swan for 1 more so I draw 2 cards but damage the opponent too. With 2 or 3 gelectrodes in play you could overburn them like crazy to draw a whole new hand. Hmmmm.... I think I'm sold.

Quick question though: Do you know based on rulings if the Gelectrodes untap AS the spell is cast, or AFTER it resolves? Like if I had dual casting on a Gelectrode, could I tap him for dmg, then cast a lightning bolt which would untap him, and use his dual casting to copy the lightning bolt before it resolves?

Also, how do you feel about Fireblast? I know its casting cost is high, but as a late-game burn it wouldn't hurt to sac a couple lands after I've already tapped them to cast something else. That's an awfully sweet way for big damage... But I suppose if using the Swans' mechanic, chain lightning is better overall if you burn them then tap the addt'l 2 for the re-burn to them or opponent.

you should have plenty to do the first 4 to 5 turns and by then you should have 4 land. Getting to 5 land will take a bit longer but I figured with the more casual nature of your games you would get there eventually.

Anyway maybe we should idd top it off at Cc4

3 Swans
1 Ranger of Eos
4 Gelectrode

... the rest of the CC1-3 spells of my above list.

Gelectrode untaps as you play a spell before it resolves, your dual casting trick would be perfectly legal. I like dual casting on gelectrode, it seems like you're onto something there.

I'm a complete spectator here at this point, cant really argue with Seths ideas =D im getting the urge to build such a deck also, although it would cause me to go temporarily bankrupt in the worst case.. but those swans are nasty if u pop a gelectrode on the table + niv mizzet would be a happy camper once u get to draw cards.

[QUOTE=maiske]I'm a complete spectator here at this point, cant really argue with Seths ideas =D im getting the urge to build such a deck also, although it would cause me to go temporarily bankrupt in the worst case.. .[/QUOTE]

not necessarily. Because my play group doesn't like poeple playing legacy staples in casual games (because many don't have all the expensive cards we keep our tournament decks and casual decks stricktly sepperated) I'm thinking about making this deck work on a cheap mana base. I'll post the build once I get the time to build something.

Yeah I was going to reply this morning with the same comment our spectator had. I've already ordered the cards I'm missing from Amazon, and I'm going to build this deck with the Swans.

I edited the OP to include the new deck build. What do you think? I capped the CC at 4, except for two Niv-Mizzets. How sweet would it be if I'm able to have a gelectrode, swan, AND Niv-Mizzet on the board in the late game?

Gelectrode (with dual casting) tap to burn Swan for 1, Chain lightning it for 3, pay the 2 red for chain lightning's copy ability and burn it for another 3, re-tap Gelectrode to copy chain lightning for a 3rd time for another 3. That's 10 damage to the Swan, so 10 cards drawn, meaning 10 damage to the opponent because of Niv-Mizzet, all for 4 mana!

4 red mana for 10 damage to the opponent (and each 1 point of damage is a different source since it happens as an effect to drawing each card) and 10 card draws is beyond ridiculous. And at that point in the game if I have Niv-Mizzet out I obviously still have mana to spare after the 4 I just spent.

**Damn, seller that had mistakenly put Chain Lightnings on Amazon for 1 cent cancelled my order for 4 of them, lol!

Even if Niv never makes it onto the table, the deck would still play just fine with the vexing devils, swans, gelectrodes, and burns.

Also to Maiske: You can play the new duals that come into play tapped unless you control one of their two mana types, aka Sulfur Falls instead of Volcanic Islands. One of the first things I did when I came back to magic was buy a full playset of 4 of each of the new duals as they're ALMOST as good as the old ones, but run $2-4 instead of $50-150 each lol. After turn 1 or 2 dropping them is usually no different than dropping an original dual.

- chain lightnings actually dropped in price for a bit with the reprint in Premium Deck Series: Fire & Lightning but it seems they went up now. The're not even played that much. The origenals are from legends and everything from legends is rare and expensive. I'm lucky to have a NM English Moat :)

- The new duals are indeed very good, the only real downside and the reason they don't see play in legacy is again fetchland. Only the Ravnica and the origenal duals have basic land types and can be fetched.

- About your deck changes. 1 Niv-Mizzet seems enough as it costs 6 and you will probably have at least 6 and more turns before you want to draw into it. With enough ponder effects you will find it by the time you need it. In my opinion having Swans and gelectrode and Niv is just win more but running 1 might be cute :)

- About Sol ring, Sol ring is only good when you play a lot of spells with colorless mana in their cost which you do not. If you had lets say a Mox Ruby then I would agree with that being there :) If you want to build towards a higher curve with Swans, Niv and possibly other goodies you might concider playing Signets (4xIzzet Signet for instance). If you play a signet on turn 2 you can play swans turn 3. Seems better then just playing more land although for spells of CC6 you should concider going 22-23 land even with cantrips.

- Arid Mesa is probably the cheapest fetchland. if you have to invest you might want to check ebay for a set and get it for 30-35$
The old fetchlands from onslaught are the most expensive so it's best to avoid them if you need to invest.

- In your new build you don't have Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorm, they would really do wonders for your deck. It's better to play lets say 3 Swans and a ponder then 4 swans, it just makes the deck all that more versitile. Same for that second Niv Mizzet

- Counterspell isn't easy to cast, there are other options like Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, Rune Snag. Also Counterspell dictates a certain playstyle and deck build. The larger part of your deck should be instant speed stuff so that you don't give away when you are setting up to counter. In your case your opponent just has to check your open mana, if you have 2 blue he has to be carefull, if not he does as he likes, it's a clear tell. Also unless you drastically change your build you're not going to be playing spalls like swans with 2 mana open as counter backup unless it's a very long game which will be unlikely in a burn heavy build like yours.
You could ofcourse change your deck into an all intant speed build with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Mystical Teachings but that would make it a very different deck.

- for the cheap landbase version I was thinking of using Vivid Lands (See Lorwyn), Eventive duals (like Cascade Bluffs, these lands where once very cheap but are now expensive again due to use in Modern) and Reflecting Pool as powerland. So it's not a cheap cheap land base but it's no where near as expensive as revised duals. Painlands are also always a good choice, they are VERY cheap (once 10$ a land, now maybe 1$ a land) and still so good.

I was kinda already pondering taking 1 of the swans out, and maybe 1 niv-mizzet to add in that other 6CC creature I mentioned, but I guess I could take them out and put in 2-3 brainstorms and swap out the counterspells for spell pierces. I definately think brainstorm is strictly better than ponder, unless you REALLY wanna shuffle your library. I just was thinking along the lines that having 4 swans in the deck would allow me so much drawing power if I burn them, that I won't need to organize the top 3 cards since I'll just pull them all anyway. I figure I'll be using half my burns to draw cards late game, and half of them to burn opponents and/or creatures. Recycling my graveyard helps this, which is why I put in the canes.

What did you think of the addition of Feldon's Cane anywho? I was thinking of it from the standpoint that if a game runs long, or if I want this burn deck to hold up in 3-4 player games, I would need some sort of mechanic to recycle my graveyard and the canes seemed like the safest bet since they don't take multiple turns to work, and they seem to work better than Past in Flames now that I've got this Swan thing going on for draw power.

Re: Sol Ring - With 4 Swans, 1 Niv Mizzet, 2 Oblivion Rings, and 1 Rebirth, that would still be 8 spells that could benefit from having a Sol Ring to get them into play while still keeping mana in reserve for responses on opponent's turn. That's 20% of my spells, meaning 1 out of every 5 spells I drop could benefit from the ring... But my rustyness is probably showing here. Am I way off base? I have a Mox Diamond I could put in that I wouldn't mind saccing a land to put out, if you think that's more beneficial than the Sol Ring in this deck. No Mox Ruby though... YET.

Re: counterspells - I've just had too many instances using spell pierce late-game where the opponent will just tap a couple more mana, since they rarely tap ALL their mana, or all but 1, for a spell except in the early game. Spell pierce only seems to help out when it's turn 1-3, maybe 4, for me. This may be a difference between our casual play and tournament play, where turns 1-4 are much more critical. Unfortunately I don't own any Force of Wills or they'd already be in there lol.

Re: lands - I do like the Lorwyn lands, but since they're not a basic land they're open to the same weaknesses as my duals, and after a couple taps for any color they aren't any more use than a basic land. So I wouldn't want to swap them out for the duals in the deck (even the new ones that need a basic land in play to be unhindered), and definately not for the basic lands unless I see in playtesting that it's much harder to play my 3 colors than I think it will be. The eventive ones I'm not a big fan of at all. You have to leave them and another land untapped, and tap both to get 2 mana, so it really doesn't seem like it's gaining me anything. Maybe I'm missing a way to use that mechanic, but it seems counterintuitive to put them in when I can use the Ravnica duals, which only hinder me for one turn and thereafter begin producing 2 mana every time they're tapped. Do you think the Ravnicas hinder the deck? It seems like as long as I drop them after I've tapped a land for a burn or summons, they may not gain me any mana turn-per-turn but they don't really lose any unless I'm holding a hand full of lands I need to drop, and overall they bring the total possible mana count of the deck up. My current mana base only had 18 potential mana from lands without them, and 20 with them put in, even with the 2 fetchlands. I definately need to swap out the evolving wilds for some sort of fetchland that I can use for colorless mana if I don't need to fetch with it or the painlands like you mentioned, as the evolving wilds seem too slow.

I know, I'm wordy.

>>Feldon's Cane

don't play Feldon's Cane, if you play multiplayer games where games take longer play 80cards or 100cards or whatever works. There's noone at our table playing a 60 card deck because we would just deck them in no time. 60 cards is optimal only for 1 on 1 play, I know most here don't agree with me on this but a +80 cards deck makes for a far better multiplayer deck then any 60 card deck can ever hope to be. I know players playing 300+ card decks that will beat most 60 card decks even in 1 on 1 every single game unless that 60 card deck is a Tier 1 legacy deck piloted by an actual tournament player.

When building for 80 cards keep the percentage land the same, about 33% to start with and depending on what you play. Then you can if you like build in a Trinket Mage toolbox that can fetch you a number of useful singleton trinkets like Sensei's Divining Top, Tormod's Crypt, Sol Ring, Elixir of Immortality (= Feldon's Cane but better IMO), Brittle Effigy...

>> Brainstorm

Brainstorm is indeed superior to ponder but only if you play enough fetchland. Brainstorm without fetchland is worse then ponder unless you need to dodge stuff like Thoughtseize or Hymn to Tourach at instant speed but that is more of a tournament thing.

>> Spell Pierce

You are right, spell pierce is a tournament staple and not effective in long games. I think I'm still confused about the nature of the games you guys play.

>> landbase

All duals are worse the revised duals, so if you have revised duals by all means play them. That said you don't really need many. You lets say 2 Plateau, 1 Tundra, 1 Volcanic Island, or maybe 2 of each when dealing with land destruction in your group and 8-10 fetchland (in a 60 card deck) to fetch the land you need. The rest of your mana base can concist of cheaper duals and basic land.

All fetchland with the exception of Onslaught fetch and Zendikar fetch is slow. The only fetch that is somewhat ok are the panorama's from Shards of Alara. They give colorless mana and come in play untapped so they can be used the turn you play them. To use them as fetch however they need an extra mana and do slow you down quite a bit and they only fetch basic land. In a decks that keeps mana open they are quite good as you can fetch end of opponents turn if you didn't need the mana.

>>No Mox Ruby though... YET

LOL. personally I stay away from Power9. I just say no to vintage, it's where I draw the line. I have almost every legacy staple there is and I play a lot of tournament legacy and that's enough for me. No reason to go vintage.

When we play 1v1 we play from 30 life to allow for more give and take. When we play 3 or 4 player games it's from 20 life but nobody plays mill decks so I don't get decked often even playing a 65-70 card deck. Nobody sees me as a threat because I play a lot of burn and thus wind up card-short. That's why I was building around past in flames, but I'm liking this deck far better for longevity, and also why I liked 2 Niv-Mizzets to make sure I get one out and start damaging people when I burn swans for draw. I'm trying to surprise them with a burn deck like this that isn't a huge deck and still wins a 4-player game. The white lifegain deck will probably be the hardest to take out, but he's usually target #1 too lol.

About the mox: I can honestly say I will never play a Vintage tournament, ever. But I plan on owning one of each mox.... and MAYBE a black lotus, from unlimited at some point. They'll be gem-mint and graded and never leave their plastic case but we allow proxies of any owned cards that are too expensive to play (which are few and far between unless you count my duals, but I play them carefully in sleeves and don't hard shuffle them... my underground seas are prob the most expensive card at the table).

I just have a lot of lands b/c that's the first thing I started collecting when I came back. I'm at 30/40 for my playsets of the 10 revised duals, 40/40 for the new duals from 2012/innistrad, 40/40 for the Ravnica tap for 2 lands, and a ton of other specialized lands I've been buying along the way, most of which will never be worth anything but I like having.

Each time I play a tournament I play a deck that is worth around 2000$. It gets shuffled all day long by me and my opponents. I dubble sleeve though, using perfect fits on the inside and dragon shields on the outside.
I resleeve a lot (before every tournament) but never the inner sleeves so the cards remain untouched. Seems to work well at keeping them safe.
My friend got his deck stolen few weeks back, he rebought all his cards. Real downer. Force of wills, intuitions, duals, fetch, show and tells, sneak attacks... painful experience.

If you start from 30 life burn is indeed at a disadvantage. In this case I think it's best you build an 80 card deck (to have more options) and build for a longer game meaning you build on a higher curve, multiple Niv-Mizzets seem like a good idea, and add additional draw spells. Stuff like Fact or Fiction, Future Sight, Blue Sun's Zenith, Electrolyze, Prophetic Bolt, Nin, the Pain Artist (insane on swans :)...

In a 80 card deck I would really play the trinket mage package

4 Trinket Mage
1 Thormod's Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Elixir of Immortality

most of the time you'll fetch sensei's divining top and ride that all game long.

I'll have to look into that, looks like it could be fun. I've used sensei's in the past but only in a blue/black deck never in a burn deck. Dunno about that guy adding more draw on my birds, except it would allow me to save my direct burns for aggro rather than card draw so that's cool. I could see cutting the chain lightnings to 3, the swans to 3, and the gelectrodes to 3 and add 3 of him for re-usable draw power since we start at 30 life. Although the gelectrodes already kinda fill that role, they just only let me draw 1 card for free each go instead of 4 cards for 4 mana and letting me save my burns for direct damage.... At least he could let me nuke dangerous non-protected creatures in the late game if necessary...decisions decisions!

Never really used trinket mages though as I've never been much of an artifact player to begin with.

For now though I'm gonna finish this deck at 60 and play it in a few 1v1 games and see what happens. Awesome input though!

[QUOTE=lifeexpectancy]For now though I'm gonna finish this deck at 60 and play it in a few 1v1 games and see what happens. Awesome input though![/QUOTE]

well good luck, I'm sure you're going to kick ass

the deck seems solid! Waiting for some feedback after you've playtested it against friends, please let us know :)

I noticed Vexing devils have dropped in price quite alot, around 6€ piece here atm, but its a shame they're out of stock, same goes for Niv-Mizzets (9€/card). I gotta wait 'till RTR's launched before I start to build this deck, might get lucky with boosters getting some new re-prints..or might not..

+ i'll settle for dual lands for now..

Edited the build to my final build I'll be using for playtesting. It unfortunately brings the mana curve up just a tad having Nin the Pain artist in, at least if I plan on using his ability at all. So I've cut it off at 62 cards to have an extra couple land. I know this won't help MUCH, but it'll help.

I took out the Chain Lightnings as I didn't feel like spending $62 right this moment for them until I've play tested the deck a bit. Unfortunately that means I won't be able to use them to burn Swans and then redirect the copy for :manar::manar: to opponent, but the Punishings have good reusability so it's ok for now.

Also, my playtesting build will not include any revised duals or fetchlands. The only card in the deck over $5 was the Niv-Mizzets, which were only $11 when I bought them. So it's more or less a $160 deck for playtesting.

The "real" version that I wanna try out on a legacy night at a local shop will include revised duals and the fetchlands like Scalding Tarn we talked about, but will still stay at 22 lands unless I see in playtesting that I can get by with 20. I know it won't stand up to real legacy decks, but there are only 1 or 2 guys there that even play top-tier decks. Should be fun to play 1v1 against the other guys.

Also, left Sol Ring in due to the inclusion of Nin the Pain artist, as his ability is gonna be expensive.

[QUOTE=lifeexpectancy]Also, left Sol Ring in due to the inclusion of Nin the Pain artist, as his ability is gonna be expensive.[/QUOTE]

Nin for :manau::manar:2 on Swans draws you 4 cards and at the time you have both out you'll have 4 mana. It's not that much. Nin for :manau::manar:3 on Swans will draw you 6 cards which is pretty insane, 5 mana for 6 cards.

Oh I know, which is why I put 2 of them in lol. That much reusable card draw in a burn deck is NICE. It will just be nice if I can have the Sol Ring in play when I'm using the Nins, so that their ability won't tap me out if I'm using it turn 6/7ish. Not to mention like I said before it makes using the Swans and other :mana2: spells much less painful turn for turn if I can keep it in play. I should really be using the Gelectrodes if I need a card or 2 as early as turn 6/7 though, so I guess I don't strictly need the Sol Ring in the deck.

Edit: Nevermind, I kinda forgot the POINT of Niv-Mizzet, duh, to damage them every time I draw cards, which could be quite often!

If it feels too slow I'll probably take out the Punishing Fires for 4 Burst Lightnings until I buy Chain Lightnings, and maybe put in Spell Pierces for the Counterspells if I take it to the local Legacy night even if I get my arse handed to me lol. I'm sure it will do fine in my home game, though.

I honestly believe this deck will work wonders! nin + gelectrode (with possible dual C ) + swans + Niv = such a sick combo, inflict dmg + draw cards 'till u mill yourself out :D

btw..Have u guys any interest in standard? i've been working on my "own creation", well its not an original one I bet, but i wanted to see what I could do..but turned out it wasnt much.

Wanna take a look?

http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=363466

The sideboard is a total mess atm, dont mind it...and so is the deck, ive been getting a headache trying to make it flow, but every sample hand I draw I end up with thinking "this sucks" :D

Here's another attempt, http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=363844

removed all the little critters, added Heartless summonings into the game...but guess what? It doesnt work...i want a somewhat cool Demon and Devil standard deck...how hard can it be? :D

My biggest problem with standard is that you're so limited in the cards you can access. We all know standard format was only created to keep Wizards' money train rolling, because it forces people to keep buying the new sets year after year after year.

I've only been back into magic for like 2 months after my 15 year hiatus, so my knowledge of the latest sets is limited at best. That said, I'll take a look and give you my suggestions for creature/spell mix percentage and mana curve as I think I'm getting my head around that aspect of the game these days at least.

Edit: Ok just glancing at your deck the most glaring problem I see is that your mana curve is MASSIVE and you have zero ramp in the deck. I know you'd like to avoid a total rebuild, but you just have so many huge creatures in there I don't see it being possible.

Creatures like Griselbrand are designed to build decks around, not put into a deck with a bunch of other huge creatures. From the looks of it I'm guessing you're working from the cards you own, and couldn't resist the urge to put a lot of what you felt like to be your powerful blacks in the deck. I would suggest instead focusing on what you WANT to build, and build the deck around that including cards you don't own. In the mean time, put "placeholders" in the deck with a similar function to the cards you need, with a similar or slightly higher casting cost. For instance, Flayer of the Hellbound really wants to be in a Zombie deck, as you'll constantly have creatures coming out of your graveyard. Your deck has a couple creatures with Undying, but that's certainly not going to be the mechanic you're focused on. If it is, then Griselbrand is unnecessary. Flayer and Griselbrand just don't go together from what I can see.

Synergy is VERY important in magic these days. I remember back in the 90s you won games either by burning your opponent or beating them over the head if you got the biggest creatures out the quickest (or took their biggest creature if you were playing blue control). I won tons of games in the 90s with a RWU patriot deck that was nothing but burns, counterspells, and white protection. I didn't have a single creature in it. I tried a similar build recently and it stank the place up. Synergy just wasn't as imperative back in the early days of magic as it is now. It was my inspiration for this RWUB burn deck that evolved into a RWU gelectrode/draw/burn deck thanks to Seth.

Also, if you're going to play BIG BLACKS as I like to call them, you definately, definately need 3 or 4 Dark Rituals in your deck. Far as I can tell from what I've learned lately, you don't want to have more than a handful of spells in your deck that cost 5-6+ mana to get out unless you've got tons of mana ramp. I realize you're trying to use your Quicksilver Amulet and/or Guilded Lotus to get those big guys out, but if you don't draw the Amulet in your starting hand or by turn 3 or 4, then you're sitting on your hands waiting to get all those big guys in play, and possibly being forced to discard cards if you haven't drawn enough mana/vexing devils to get things going. Not only that, but the Amulet and Lotus are both susceptible to destruction before you ever even get a chance to use them due to their high casting cost.

The guilded lotus wants to be good, but since it takes :mana5: to get out, it slows you down more than anything. I personally wouldn't use it unless I had a way to make it indestructible, and FAST. It takes two uses of it to get your investment back, and what happens if someone gets rid of it at instant speed with any of the millions of artifact removal instants? Then you blew 5 mana for nil. I'd use 4 Dark Rituals in a Griselbrand before even thinking about Guilded Lotus, and rituals are cheap as heck. You can get a playset of 4 for $3-4.

If you can, get rid of most of the other big creatures and just put 2 Griselbrands in the deck with other smaller creatures and spells to use as a build-up/stall to getting them out, and maybe 2 or 3 other Big Blacks that you like or that can play off of Griselbrand (thinking maybe some flying black Lifelink creatures possibly), as the Griselbrand can definately be a game winner if he gets through, or even if he just BLOCKS since you gain the 7 life in either direction and can then empty your opponent's hand. I'm thinking Vampire Nighthawk (even though they're not a "demon deck" creature, and maybe Loxodon Warhammer even though it's a tad expensive. These would both fit into the 3CC slot in the deck. Then you just need a few more 1-offs and 2-offs.

There's an artifact equipment that gives a creature shroud (can't remember the name), and would be a good idea to have in your deck to protect the Griselbrand if you get him into play. It would suck to finally get him out only to have someone nuke him for 7 dmg or flat out destroy him (lotsa green spells have black creature removal if I'm not mistaken).

The Hex Parasites seem almost worthless here. I don't see any counter creation in the deck, so where will they be pulling counters from to beef themselves up?

I have a feeling the price of Vexings is going to continually increase, as they are a no-brainer for burn decks, but they don't necessarily fit into every deck. They will help you because they're strong and cheap, and as long as it's a B/R deck I can see them working as part of your creature base.

The Go For the Throat/Altar's Reap + Tragic Slip combo is fun and I can see that working, but then you're doing a 2 for 1 thing where you have to burn 2 cards to get any real benefit from Tragic Slip, and without more card draw in your deck you'll wind up card short. Better to just get rid of Altar's Reap and Tragic Slip in favor of 3 or 4 straight removal spells if that's what you're going for, something like Terminate (:manab::manar: destroy target creature, can't be regenerated).

******** Your second version fixed the above issue I think, but the red burn spell that does X damage is, to me, a waste of time. By the time you have the mana to make it big, you should be casting Griselbrand. If he is in play, you shouldn't need to be burning for X damage. I personally despise X damage burns like Fireball, etc. If you're gonna use burn spells, I'd use lightning bolt + punishing fire.

Sorry I didn't give a lot of specific card suggestions like Seth does, but I'm just not as card-literate. I'm more just trying to point out what I see as the deck's weaknesses.

Re: My deck working wonders - I think it'll be fine for casual play, but it's simply too slow for real legacy tournaments. I don't see decks winning legacy that have multiple 4-6 CC creatures in the mix unless they're green decks because those ramp so fast, or blue/black decks b/c of dark ritual, and even then it still seems like the show and tell decks, mono red burn decks with just a splash of another color at most, and control decks tend to win the most often.

People think standard is a cheaper format to play, but in the long run I think it could easily wind up being far more expensive. Even if you have a $2000-$4000 deck that you play in legacy, odds are you'll only swap out a few cards here and there each year to adjust to the meta-game. Standard on the other hand is constantly changing, and a few years from now your deck may look NOTHING like it does today. And when new cards like goyf burst onto the scene and go from a few dollars to $130-200 almost overnight? Forget it. Within a 5-6 year span you've already outspent many of the more expensive legacy decks.

U hit the spot in many cases :)

Dark Rituals are so ridicolously efficient in such Big Black monster decks, but its not standard..so its not an option. I also wanted to make a deck that isn't graveyard based, thus adding the Heartless summonings / Gilded lotuses / Quicksilver amulets..Heartless summoning being by far the fastest option..

Hex parasites give u infinite undying by removing counters from your own creatures and killing of opponents planewalkers in a flurry..

Time's running out, gotta be busy at work the last 15mins or so, then get home to sleep for the day :) I'll write more about my plan with this standard deck and what went wrong once I get back to work this evening, or u could see already the fails i made, but rather discuss on how to work on them.

Damn dark ritual isn't standard? I thought it got reprinted pretty often? Or is there just a specific rule against it?

If you're going to go the Undying counter route, I would at least take out Griselbrand and lower the mana curve a bit for sure. Sorry I can't be more help on the Standard format cards.

I know there's a red one that is :manar: and gives 3x :manar:, basically a red dark ritual, but it requires you to sacrifice a creature. Is there maybe a smaller/cheaper CC creature with Undying you could use? Like a 1/2 or 2/2 with Undying? This would give you another counter source too, and a (much needed) lower casting cost one at that, and allow the red version dark ritual to aid in getting big guys out.

I know I'm just a Sol Ring fanatic, but isn't it legal in Standard since it was reprinted in From the Vault?

First playtest done tonight. Deck went 3-0 against one of my friends' better decks, but he got some bad draws and I didn't completely stomp him like I expected to. I played the expensive mana base version minus the fetchlands, with extra duals in their places.

I'm thinking of removing the Dual Castings. I thought they'd be good but I don't find myself copying burns as often as I thought I would, and they go to the graveyard too if their creature dies. Hey Seth, what do you think about me working 2-3 Basilisk Collars and/or Lightning Greaves into the deck to stick on the Gelectrodes or Pain Artists instead of the Dual Castings? Would turn the Gelectrodes into the ultimate snipers.

Nice thing, so it doesnt only look good on paper, it actually works! :) Imo, i'd take the dual castings out, then either add more blue control (Seth seems an expert on these) or add Lightning Greaves, 2 drop with no equip cost is great. Silversilk cloak and Swiftfoot boots being much more unreliable and expensive to cast.

Both Dark Rituals and Sol Rings are out of standard. It suits me fine, as I'm tired on getting raped by Dread (or any other meanie) by turn 2-3. Almost every black non-standard heavy-hitter creature based deck runs dark rituals or sol rings in the decks of my friends..it gets boring after a while. "Ohh I see u have a dark ritual, Ohh Sol Ring what a surprise" and you'll be ass-broken as u didnt get to begin and play a duress!

I'm thinking of totally forgetting about the 1st B/R deck I posted, the 2nd one might have some potential, but not being able to play Lightning Bolts/flame slashes/Chain Lightnings/Lava Spikes/ u name it makes it hard. One option would be to remove the X dmg burn and 4 Doomblades, or Bonesplinters (worse option since the 2nd deck doesnt rely on undying anymore)

Infernal Plunge is the card u were talking about, add 3R mana for 1 + sac a creature.
I happened to buy a couple of M13 boosters today, ending up with a Liliana of the terribly Dark gloomy realms in my hand.. the deck would deffo benefit from her +1 ability.

http://www.mtgvault.com/images/cards/medium/M13/liliana-of-the-dark-realms.jpg

Tbh I also thought about a Vampire Nighthawk, the only disadvantage is its CC, 1BB, making him unstable in a B/R deck as you might not get him out in time. Also having a Heartless summoning on the table makes him a 1/2 flying deathtouch lifelinker..well that's still not SO bad but i'd rather think of another option for CC 3..if there is one.

From one standard deck to another, here's another one I have, http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=364213

The idea isn't originally mine, i've simply made some changes to make it feel fresh and "original". If u wanna try out a standard deck then I suggest buy it and try it as its soooo cheap, and prolly the most fun standard deck to play that i've come across!!

basilisk colar is if I'm not mistaken a 1CC Artifact which brings us back to my trinket mage package. Having the choice of Basilisk Colar/Sensei's diving top/sol ring/thormod's crypt and 4 tutors to fetch these is really strong. You only need the crypt is people if your group abuse the graveyard. In legacy most decks do.

Lightning greaves is a strong card in a creature based aggro strategy, I don't think your deck is the place for it but you could include 1 as a radom angle of attack which you should never underestimate.

dual casting is a trick at best, I would play only 1 again as a radom effect. If your opponent knows you use it often they will start to realize shooting down your creatures in response to you casting dual casting really pays off.
It also gets worse the more non spells you play.

You guys must also realize that playing a ton of stuff to protect your creatures actually backfires when you don't have any creatures and are hopelessly waiting to draw into them. Builing a deck is finding that fine line, the balance between protection, removal and win conditions.

As for standard I have no interest in the format what so ever. I did play competitive standard for a few years in the past and I think in the end I've spend more money on standard then I've spend on legacy cards. Standard can be fun and competitive but it comes no where near the play experience legacy offers and ever since I started playing competitive legacy I just gave up on keeping up with the latest sets. I do read the spoilers and buy the cards that are critical to Legacy and the fun cards that I want to play in commander. But I have no interest sorting out what is legal and what not to help out people that want to restrict themselves to such a limited pool of cards.

I agree on standard being more trouble than it's worth. Once you build a strong legacy deck, if tournament play is your goal, then you only have to tweak it here and there. Standard can see your entire deck become unplayable in a very short time. As I said, in my opinion the standard format was only created to keep people buying large quantities of the latest sets, to keep Wizards's money train rolling.

Re: Dual Castings - I agree 100% which is why I took them out. I do like the idea of the trinket mage package but I think if I were to try and work that in, I would morph the deck into something completely different than the original intent and would have to take out the vexing devils, which for the purposes of this deck are more of a threat/easy burn than a true creature, or the Niv-Mizzets.

The deck is working really well so far with just the 2 Lightning Greaves and the 2 Basilisk Collars in it in place of the dual castings. The Enlightened Tutor has helped me get one or the other out several times. It seems that I always draw 1 or the other by turn 4 (when I'm getting things out anyway). I occassionally feel myself wanting for more burns now that it only has 11 burn spells in it and no dual casting, but what I lack there I make up for in attack power with the Vexing Devils when they aren't countered with the 4-life option, and the Swans which are solid flying attackers in their own right.

I frustrated the living crap out of my friend the other day because he pulled out his fastest green deck he owns, and I managed to get a Basilisk Collar and Lightning Greaves on one of my Gelectrodes. I sniped every creature he put out, using my burns in concert with the Gelectrode, and just beat him over the head with a Devil and a Swan I had out for a few turns. When he finally drew into a destruction card to get rid of the Lightning Greaves so he could target and remove my Gelectrode, the writing was already on the wall.

We played that game from 30 life so he thought his greenies would have time to overpower me, but it just didn't happen.

The deck's current build has a record of 9 wins 3 losses in home play, all 3 losses being to a mono-red burn deck that I went 3 wins 3 losses against. Basically if I can get out my pyrostatic pillar I win b/c I can just hold onto my burns for a kill shot, and if not I lose lol.

I just sleeved up my own version




60 cards

2 Arid Mesa
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Reflecting Pool
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
4 Terramorphic Expanse

4 Vexing Devil
4 Gelectrode
3 Trinket Mage
1 Ranger of Eos
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Chain Lightning
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lightning Helix
1 Proclamation of Rebirth
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Nice man, looks like a lot of fun and a different twist on the deck. From the looks of it yours plays at a higher/more complicated level than mine, which is to be expected.

Do you plan on playing it in casual games or are you going to test it out against competitive Legacy decks?

Out of curiousity though, why are you using the pain lands like Steam Vents when I'm guessing you probably own plenty of the original duals? These appear to me to be identical except you have to pay 2 life to avoid having them come into play tapped. Is it because the deck is for home games and you have a limit on what individual cards in the deck can cost? I mean steam vents is as expensive as one or two of the cheapest original duals, so it doesn't seem too much a stretch to just put a volcanic island in its place. Unless I'm understanding wrong, they're susceptible to "non-basic land" destruction spells too, just like the original duals.

the landbase is a bit of pain, I goldfished it a few times and it seems to work out but getting started is tricky. I used what lands I had left lying about, I currently have 10 commander decks and 4 competitive legacy decks so most of my good lands aretied up. I also keep my legacy landbase seperated from my casual decks so that it's available whenever I go to a tournament. I do have 1 commander deck that plays all 10 revised duals and all 10 fetchland and I have a cube that has all 10 duals and fetch. I have 5 of each dual and 5 of each fetch so I don't need to switch between decks often but it happens and I try to minimize that.

The price of ravnica duals si absurt right now with them being played in Modern but I bought all of them years ago for 5€ a card. As I said before people in my group don't appreciate to many legacy staples at the table and these don't count :)

The deck is for casual only, fun and powerful as it is the legacy tournaments over here are all between 40 and 100 poeple and all play Tier 1 decks. The deck just can't compete with Tier 1 legacy decks in the current meta. I would have to make it a more typical URw Delver deck and even that isn't Tier 1 quality.

Yeah I figured it wouldn't match up against top tier legacy decks because even with a perfect draw it isn't going to win in less than 5 turns probably, longer if someone is slowing it down with counters/discards/mill/control/etc.

Makes sense about your lands situation. I've still got 10 lands left to buy to complete my playsets of the revised duals and am a long way off from not having to swap lands between decks. I just use the same card sleeves on all my decks so I don't have to unsleeve/resleeve any of the pricier cards. Next year I'll probably start working on fetchland playsets, because I want to finish sets of those before the prices skyrocket too much since they're seeing a lot of use in legacy apparently.

Sometimes I think I should've just stuck to collecting all the non-basic lands, which was what I originally started out doing, rather than jumping back in full-tilt buying cards and building decks. I went from a deck box of 100ish non-basic lands to a big trading card box with 2200+ cards in it and ever-groing lol.

only 10 away from a full set of sets, that's really nice man, not many people can say that these days. The fantastic thing is that once you have the landbase you can start making whatever deck you like for a minimum cost and what you buy usually ends up being good in multiple decks as well. It's the landbase that holds people back from starting a legacy deck. The last so many years have also proven that these cards only rise in value, so it's actually a pretty good investment. Worst case scenario you can always quit and get your money back.

The deck is really strong but to make it work in a legacy tournament meta you would need to change so many cards it would become a different deck. You would for instance need mainboard force of will and spell pierce, possibly daze as well, that's a lot of cardslots. Also the gelectrodes and swans and everything in that category of mana cost is to expensive, you need fast cards like delver of secrets, goblin guide, tarmogoyf, that sort of tempo cards.

Yeah I read about Goyf when I came back to magic and I can't believe they made a creature THAT damn broken. Legacy/Vintage decks cycle through cards so fast that Goyf becomes this 2-off MONSTER that if you get him out can often be game-over. I just can't figure out what they were smoking in R&D when they came up with that guy.

I probably could've been done with my revised playsets sooner, but I've been holding out for immaculate or as close to immaculate condition cards as possible, while trying not to pay out the ear for them. I picked up a mint condition Underground Sea for $115 and they're usually $140-150 for mint condition lately. I'm working another deal currently that should net me 3 more at a decent chunk off the max they're currently going for. I avoid ebay though out of shear principle so it narrows my search field.

Thanks for the help conceptualizing this deck. I'm LOVING it in casual play and in a 3-way game with my buddies it holds its own without dominating, which was exactly my goal in trying to build a burn deck that wasn't all about "how fast can I remove 20 life from this guy?". Its current build is almost perfect for the purposes that I built it for, and I think my original 4-color draft was just an overly excited exuberance to use what I thought were my best scrying cards without looking enough at how the deck would actually play.

well, this sure was a fun project, I'm looking forward to your next idea :)