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stacking come in play effects and allies

Hey guys


Played a few casual games last night and bumped into a situation where my opponent used Planar Guide to exile all creatures and return them to play at the end of turn. No biggy.
The somewhat complex part was the stacking of effects of all the allies we had comming into play. (we were both trying out the new allies combined with a few older cards)

I just want to verify if we did things correctly (hope guys like Shadowex3 and scumbling1 can throw in their views here).

On my end I had 3 Umara Raptor and a Sea Gate Loremaster. So they all hit play at the same time and their effects go on the stack. In case of Uma Raptor I guess the first raptor would get 1 counter for himself and another 3 for the 3 other allies triggering the enter play. The next reptor only gets 3 counters, and the 3th raptor only gets 2 counters (one for him and one for the loremaster). right?

Then on my opponents end (where things were more interesting), he has 6 allies hitting the battlefield and he stacks his effects. He has 2xOndu Cleric. Is it correct that each Ondu Cleric triggers 6 times for 6 allies in play for a total of 72 life gain? (that's how I saw it)
Same stuff for his Hagra Diabolist, I loose 6x6 life for a total of 36 damage he deals to me.

I think it was a correct interpretation of the situation but I would like a second opinion of the experienced players on this board.

(PS: in my own defense I had a lot of non allies in play as well, not just the 4 weenies when I got my ass kicked by Hagra Diabolist :)

cheers

Seth
Posted 28 January 2010 at 09:06

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11 replies

ok, simultaneous come into play effects, cool! All the allies on each side of the board see all the other allies come into play as well at the same time, so each ally triggers for each other ally. To make things specific;

Each Umara Raptor on your side triggers 4 times, one for themselves, and one for each other ally that came into play. so, as long as you hit all the triggers, there's 4 +1/+1 counters on each one of them after all your abilities resolve.

On the other side of the field, same goes, all the ondu clerics trigger 6 times, one for themselves, and five more times for each other ally your opponent controlled. Plus, they all see 6 allies when the abilities resolves, so that's 6x6x2 = 72 life. Hagra Diabolist does the same thing, meaning you lost a gigantic 72 life. Hope that clears things up.
0
Posted 28 January 2010 at 22:26

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Yeah it's was my conclusion as well, I just wasn't sure about the raptors.

Anyway, if there was something in standard that made all creatures blink all at once allies would be a good deck. A simple white/black ally list can deal a world of pain with relative cheap mana costed creatures.

Steely Resolve
Patriarchs Bidding
ghostway

hmmm could be good :)
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Posted 29 January 2010 at 08:34

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if we had a blink like that in Standard, Allies would be way playable come Worldwake. They're already going to be there though, with the 1 drop and the lifelink and the mana producer.
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Posted 29 January 2010 at 10:42

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As far as I've been able to understand the various rulings on issues like this multiple simultaneous comes-into-plays are treated as though everything had been played sequentially in a single turn at instant speed BUT the difference is you can to choose which order the stuff you control hits the stack in. So if you've got 5 allies they're treated as though you cast all 5 of them that turn, and you get to choose the order things occur in.

All the rulings I've seen from other cards seem to treat it as sort of a hybrid between everything treated as a single instant speed burst-effect and a lot of instants played one after the other.

This is one I'd really like to see an actual DCI judge rule on, with all the landfall and ally effects out there it's going to come up sooner or later.
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Posted 29 January 2010 at 17:27

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I'm a level 0 that's getting tested for L1 soon, does that count?
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Posted 29 January 2010 at 17:57

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I'm not a judge, but I'm pretty sure Nightloki is correct. Nothing happens "at the same time" as anything else in Magic, technically. But with the way the stack works at a delayed pace, the Raptors would come down in a sequential order, and yet all be in play before the Ally bonuses start resolving. In the given scenario, it doesn't really matter in what order you choose to throw down the allies, but in some wierd corner case you could be called upon to specify what hits the battlefield first.
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Posted 30 January 2010 at 02:30

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to be specific, they do hit simultaneously, but the triggered abilities don't resolve simultaneously. You choose (for your creatures) what order the abilities go on the stack, and the resolve in FILO order (First in, Last out).
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Posted 30 January 2010 at 17:53

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The Valakut scapeshift combo demonstrates this perfectly. All mountains come into play at the same time and then come in play effects/triggers are stacked. For each of the 6 mountains that were scapeshifted in Valakut deals 3 damage. If permanents were comming into play sequancially this combo could not work.

Believe it 6 allies with one Hagra Diabolist results in 36 life loss and one Ondu Cleric gains you 36 life if all come in play at the same time. It's pretty cool. This should work with cards like Patriarch's Bidding and ghostway. It's a good combo (for casual play).
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Posted 30 January 2010 at 22:03

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Heh, I was wrong about the order of play, but at least I got the part about the stack right... :o

Anyway, don't forget about your Planar Guides and Rites of Repliction.
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Posted 31 January 2010 at 03:25

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[QUOTE=Seth]The Valakut scapeshift combo demonstrates this perfectly. All mountains come into play at the same time and then come in play effects/triggers are stacked. For each of the 6 mountains that were scapeshifted in Valakut deals 3 damage. If permanents were comming into play sequancially this combo could not work.

Believe it 6 allies with one Hagra Diabolist results in 36 life loss and one Ondu Cleric gains you 36 life if all come in play at the same time. It's pretty cool. This should work with cards like Patriarch's Bidding and ghostway. It's a good combo (for casual play).[/QUOTE]

Good example!


hey, wait....did you just say believe it?
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Posted 31 January 2010 at 16:32

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[QUOTE=scumbling1]Heh, I was wrong about the order of play, but at least I got the part about the stack right... :o

Anyway, don't forget about your Planar Guides and Rites of Repliction.[/QUOTE]

I didn't even think about right of replication, that's a cool option. I don't like the planar guides myself, ghostway is better in every way.


NightLoki: too cheesy? my apologies :)
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Posted 01 February 2010 at 08:31

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