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Win with Glimpse the Unthinkable and Mind Funeral backed by tons of bounce, counters, and removal spells. Tell me what you think? Question: I've been going through the sample draw simulator, and it doesn't feel like I am milling th opponent fast enough, how do I mill the opponent in 7 turns consistently and live (if that's even possible for milling)?
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Dude definite out on the Rootwater Depths. Dual lands have gotten so much better. Jwar Isle Refuge are like, 25 cents each. They come into play tapped, they give you one life when they come in, and they untap everyturn. I would also consider cutting at least one of each basic for 2 terramorphic expanse/evolving wilds. Hedron crab + fetch lands = awesome. The dopplegangers are definitely unnecessary for this deck. I would check out one or two Circu, Dimir Lobotomist in they're place, and possibly some more control to bide time, counterspells or the like.
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I'm putting in the Jwar Isle Refuge over the Rootwater Depths, but do you think the Dimir Aqueducts are worth it? If i have one out and one in my hand, I could mill for 3 every turn, and when i draw a land, I'll just play the other land down. I would use those fetch lands but I'm just not too sure yet though but I'll look into that. Dopplegangers are out... Thank goodness I have 2 Circu, Dimir Lobotomist already... Do the doom blades and echoing truth work? or should I add some counter spells like muddle the mixture or remand? My brother told me something that was interesting... he said the problem with this deck is that I use up cards too quick sometimes and the cards that kill me are the cards that I do not mill, such as the cards in their hand in the beginning of the game. So that's where i thought of the Consult the Necrosages... but now I'm thinking of cards like Recoil... And should I keep the twincast and the keening stone?
drop twincast. you'd be better off going for survival or extra mill with that one extra slot. the problem with mill (which i'm sure you are familiar) is being able to hold off your opponent while they get milled.... also the fact that it's inherently easier to remove 20 life than it is 60 cards (well... 53). so there's two things you want to do. first, make sure all of your mill cards are CHEAP.. one or two mana. mind funeral is doable.. the purpose here is to make sure you've still got mana spare for counters and responses (to either push your mill spells through or protect yourself) second, load your deck with cheap counters and utility. keening stone is a nice idea but ultimately it's probably too expensive unless you've got a shit-ton of counters to keep you alive until the late game (but by then your opponent should already be dead!). drop the following: -1x twincast -2x recoil -3x echoing truth -2x drowner initiate and add 4x snap 4x ponder also drop -3x dimir infiltrator -3x guard gomozoa add +4 memory lapse (pretty much a hard counter in a mill deck) +2 mana leak and there needs to be a way of fitting brainstorm in there as well. maybe drop the nemesis of reason.... i mean the cheaper the spells and the more draw tech you've got, the faster you can play through your stuff and the more that Circu can mess up your opponent's game. so -3x nemesis of reason +3x brainstorm there you go. it's less creature-heavy and it should be more consistent with the milling, from the extra card draw and cheap counters. i left perplex in there because it's really handy.
Thank you very much for your input! It was helpful. I added the Snaps and the Brainstorms (which i liked better than ponder). But for draw mechanics, would Serum Visions or Counsel of the Soratami work? For cards that mill under 1 or 2 cost I've only seen a few that were worthy other than the Glimpse the Unthinkable. I was thinking of Tome Scour, Memory Sluice, Vision Charm, and Brain Freeze. Out of these 4, I only own Memory Sluice though. I have yet to take out the Dimir Infiltrator and the Guard Gomazoa because I am afraid of not being able to block attacks from creatures that actually do get through. I like the Dimir Infiltrator because i can use him to get the Glimpse the Unthinkable when needed. The Guard Gomazoa though, would replacing that with a Wall of Tears be any better for my cause? I have also not added in extra counter spells yet. Memory Lapse is a for sure, but instead of Mana Leak, could I be playing a Rune Snag, Miscalculation, or Remand instead? or for added milling, adding in Broken Ambitions? What are your thoughts on those counters. I'm also assuming that I should keep in the Perplex even though it may not be countering anything. It guess with more creatures I can't mill my opponent fast enough, because I want to Mill them out in less than 6-7 turns. Unless that's too slow for a mill deck because when compared to a few burn decks, they can win on turn 4-5.
oh i forgot to count the keening stone. -2 keening stone +2 nemesis of reason there, you get to have him back, haha.
I haven't taken out the Keening Stones yet but as I work on perfecting this deck, I'm sure this card will not be in it. If I was to use Keening Stone, it would surely be in a Multiplayer deck full of Traumatizes and cards of such.
One other one worth trying for card draw, and I've used it to fairly decent success, is Trade Secrets. Once in a while it backfires, I will give it that. But, the ability to force more cards out of your opponents deck and draw up to four cards for 3 mana is amazing. Most of the time I will wait until I have a counterspell in my hand, then trade secrets. I draw more mill and counters, they get some cards out of it. But then you just wait to see if they play a bomb and counter it. Its also heavily deck dependent. I wouldn't play it in a million years against a burn deck or control deck, but anything else it usually works out fine. Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but 9/10, it works to my advantage. And if the opponent decides to repeat, I almost always go in for another 4. Worst case I discard a land. May or may not work for you, it does for me.
I never knew that card existed! and i really like it. I would use it but I'm scared of not being able to use it properly, and the drawbacks scare me also. Maybe I'm just not used to these types of cards. I used my brother's deck once, and I saw a Gifts Ungiven, I used it and didn't know what to take out and force my opponent to basically give me the cards i wanted. It's a little hard. Haha. But I will definitely look into this card (it's financially cheap too). Thank you.
Very awesome mill deck. Here's my two cents: Definitely get some fetch lands. I have a mill/control deck myself and they have come in handy more times than not. If you have one or more Hedron Crabs out... bonus! Being able to repeatedly mill your opponent, for no cost, just for dropping lands is just something you can't beat. If you're looking to be able to block creatures to be able to survive, I use Fog Bank in my deck. It's only two mana, it's defender, flying and receives no combat damage. If you can afford four Glimpse the Unthinkables, do it! Ten cards for two mana is just... insane. I would put in Tome Scour. Five cards for one mana is too good to pass up in my opinion. Plus, it's basically Glimpse, just cut in half. Mind Funeral is a must. Even if they mill four lands in a row, it's still worth it. Any other cards that get milled with it is a bonus. Most likely, you'll mill more than six cards with that one card. Perplex is awesome because of the condition. Their spell can either be countered, or they (basically mill). The only thing is if they only have one or two cards in their hand and they don't mind discarding them, it'll be a waste. Look up Induce Paranoia and see what you think of that. It's a little expensive (two colorless and two blue mana and you'll want to use black mana for the colorless part), but the payoff can be awesome; Especially if it's a big spell with a large casting cost. Definitely keep Mr. Circu. He's a big pain in the ass. I never knew of Trade Secrets either. Thanks Jerod! I hope my suggestions have been helpful!
If I put in some fetch lands, should I take out the Jwar Isle Refuge and/or the Dimir Aqueducts? or should I start going into my basic lands? I was thinking of Fog Bank but I'm on a limited budget right now, that's why I was thinking of Guard Gomazoa, because they are so cheap right now. I already own my set of Glimpse the Unthinkables (so costly) and Mind Funerals. I'm still deciding between Tome Scour or Memory Sluice because while one mills 5 cards and the other 4, Memory Sluice can be used to mill for black mana also, and if I happen to have creatures out, I could conspire for up to 8. That would require me to have creatures though, which might be a problem since I've been given a few suggestions to have fewer creatures. I guess I'll keep a few Perplexes in my deck, it sounds almost like a win/win card, because worse comes to worse I can always just transmute for the mind funeral. Thanks for your two cents scottymandingo :D
Would a Grixis or Esper Panorama do better than a Terramorphic Expanse or Evolving Wilds for my deck?
I forgot about Memory Sluice's conspire ability. It would depend on how many creatures you plan to have, which doesn't look like that much. It is nice that you can use blue or black mana. It's your call really. Yeah, Fog Bank can be somewhat expensive. Depends on where you go. Star City Games has some for under $2. Perplexes transmute is a very handy ability in a deck like this. Good to have. In my opinion, Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds would be better than the Panorama lands. With Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds, you don't have to pay to fetch your lands, and they don't come into play tapped. If you must use a non-basic land, I would keep Jwar Isle Refuge. At least you gain a life with it. Did you check out Induce Paranoia?
I'll stick with Memory Sluice for now, but when I have time to get a set of Tome Scours :D I have checked out Induce Paranoia, as much as I like it, I'm trying to use Purkle's advise of having cheaper spells to do what I need to do. For the moment, Nemesis of Reason and Circu, Dimir Lobotomist are the only 2 cards that cost over 3. It is a little pricey so instead I'll be using Memory Lapse for the hard counter and is much cheaper, but it does not mill. =( If I build another deck for multi player milling, Induce Paranoia would surely be one of those cards along with Keening Stone, Traumatize, Haunting Echoes, and a few Archive Traps.
Yeah, there are cheaper counters out there and if you are trying to keep everything around two mana, then definitely go with something else. Good luck!
hey, me again. couple of suggestions: i've personally tried out guard gomazoa and they are really useful. fog bank is strictly better for 1U but if you're on a budget then the goma will do. i mostly play mill decks and there's a definite formula for getting it right (if you're using mill spells rather than triggered effects like the allies from zendikar block). first, plonk 4 or so blockers in there. they should be cheap but long-lived. sometimes taking a few extra damage on turn 2 is worth it to stick out a bigger wall on turn three. case in point: Wall of Denial. if you're not running white, then something like Wall of tears can be a cheap way to disrupt your opponent early game, although late game, prepare to get stomped because most decks can lay down a 4/4 on turn four or earlier. "immortals" like fog bank/guard gomozoa can be a real blessing if you're against someone with massive creatures... but wherever possible try to keep things costing around 2. that way, even if you only have four lands in play, you can lay down a wall and have room for a counterspell. next thing. load up on counters/disruption. a mill deck requires a strong control element. this doesn't necessarily have to be direct counters. essentially your aim is only to stall them, not lock them down. don't be afraid to let your opponent gain life (in fact, if they cast lifegain spells, let them - it won't do them any good against mill) and don't be afraid to lose a few life yourself and save your counters for persistent threats like creatures. one 3/3 is probably not much of a worry. two is a different story. with the counters, keep each individual spell as versatile as possible. counters that only work on creatures or non-creatures are too specific and you're bound to have the wrong one in your hand when you need it. as long as it costs 2 or less and isn't too limited in its use, it's a keeper. i'll let you try a few out. mana leak is useful, but late-game gets a bit out-paced. maybe 2x of them is ok. memory lapse is an auto-include in any mill deck. here's a nice card for you. mesmeric orb.... seeing as you'll have a pretty low permanent count, you may as well capitalize on it. it also turns your memory lapses into proper all-the-time hard counters, and mills them for tapping lands and attacking.... while you just sit back with several land free for counters not really tapping much except for mill spells. trust me it works great. lastly, with stuff like nemesis of reason... what you've got to consider is the average number of cards you will mill from it, in an average game. ideally, you want a couple of spare mana when you play it, so you've got a counterspell if needed.... so you'll probably get round to playing it on turn 7 or 8, and he could attack by turn 8 or 9. by then, most decks aim on having won the game. sure you will have been slowing them down, but by that point in the game, you could probably just finish them off with a final mill spell, if you've had a good go at their library already. one problem you'll have with a mill deck is on the fourth or fifth turn, you'll run out of cards in your hand. the way to get around this is with spells like ponder and brainstorm. both are excellent and well worth the space in your deck because they let you dig down for that counterspell you need or that final mill spell. so, quick recap: 4x random blocker 3x brainstorm 4x ponder 2x mesmeric orb 4x mind funeral 4x glimpse of the unthinkable 4x tome scour 25 cards so far. mill component is good and leaves plenty of room for extras. i'd say: 4x Hedron Crab 4x memory lapse 3x Counterspell 2x howling mine 2x Boomerang that's 40 cards. 4x terramorphic expanse (crab fuel) 10x island 6x swamp 60 cards. if you get the right blocker in there, you could have a really stable platform for stalling your opponent. sorry if this comment was a bit long, lol. just if you were wondering, here's my current build for mill: 4x thopter foundry 4x sword of the meek 4x wall of denial these three keep me safe on the board 4x memory lapse 2x mana leak 4x counterspell counters, self explanatory 4x mind funeral 4x archive trap 4x Maralen of Mornsong that's the mill component 3x winter orb 3x boomerang 4x Arcane Sanctum 8x island 4x swamp 4x plains basically, stick the thopter foundry down with the sword and start generating loads of tokens while saving enough mana for a counterspell each time. this keeps the board safe and gains you plenty of life. stick a wall in there where necessary and go through the motions of whittling away with the flying thopter tokens. counter their major threats. when you're ready, stick down a maralen of mornsong (preferably when you've got at least 1 archive trap in hand) and watch as the game turns into a mill-fest. when they search their library, whack down an archive trap. throw in a mind funeral for good measure. winter orb is something to stick out as a staller. lure your opponent into an expensive play then counter it with a cheap counter. you'll be maybe three mana better off and that leaves you in a good position to gain some advantage. make sure to always leave the spare mana for counterspells unless you know you can win.
This is awesome Purkle. I'm probably going to take your suggestions and change up my mill deck a bit. I need more countering in mine. When I'm done with it, I'll post it. Both you and Lilvietkoi should have a look! :)
i forgot completely about Circu. he can still be pretty nice if you manage to get him down (which would be on about turn 6 if you're saving 2 mana for counters).... but it's the luck of the draw. sometimes he's a dead card in your hand and other times he's brilliant. if you've already got a nice wall or two in play, circu is brilliant. if it's just him by himself, he's a very expensive chump blocker. i think perhaps he's the kind of card you have to build a deck around (like quirion dryad - play shitloads of cheap blue draw and counterspells... muchos mill and your opponent gets spell-screwed).
i've found that certain mill decks work well in two-headed giant. cards like Wheel and Deal are major bombs in a multiplayer environment. twincasted, it's a monster. but multiplayer decks are a different kettle of fish to a 1v1 deck... less focused and more expensive.