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give all of your creatures planeswalker power! Mycosynth Lattice: Turn all of your permanents (including planeswalkers) into artifacts Darksteel Forge, Privileged position, True believer, Sterling Grove: make you and your permanents untouchable March of the machines: Turn your permanents into creatures for Experiment Kraj Master of Etherium: prevent your lands from death when you play march of the machines Mirror Gallery: allows you to play 4 experiment krajs Now here's the combos part Now that youve played all of the above cards along with a planeswalker and experiment kraj tap the kraj to put a +1/+1 counter on your planeswalker creature (thanks to march of the machines). Kraj now has all of its abilities and according to the rules of magic can put as many loyalty counters on himself as he wants per turn, thus reacting in infinite planeswalker abilities. Skill borrower is the same deal, give it planeswalker abilities and wipe out your opponent with ease If you have any questions leave a comment, and yes i do realize this is an impossible situation, but it is legal. Add in other cards to defend yourself if your opponent has, for example, a grave pact card in play so you have other creatures to sacrifice. People have done this on magic online successfully, search mycosynth lattice on www.mtgcombos.com and look at the comments
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it isn't legal experiment kraj cannot use planeswalker abilities and can never put infinit eloyalty counters on himself
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someone did it on mtg online
bullshit. of course you can. every angle required to turn your creatures into planeswalkers are there. this deck is real nice. congradulations on the build, and i hope to see more goodness. come check out my newest creation if you would.. http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=189030
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/planeswalkers/week4 . Read the rules. "+X" means "Put X loyalty counters on this PLANESWALKER." Experiment Kraj isn't a Planeswalker, therefore can't use their abilities.
Actually, according to the comprehensive rules, the abilities on planeswalkers are now referred to as 'Loyalty Abilities', which means that this combo can indeed be used to allow Kraj to borrow an ability from a planeswalker, although it cannot be used infinitely, as per rule 606.3. 606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
thanks for backing me up jellow3579:)
So... Then you can't go infinite with this... Doesn't that kind of make the whole thing pointless in a way then? I mean, I guess after going through all that trouble you then get to virtually have 2 of any planeswalker down at once...
Not necessarily, it's just not as effective. You still get a centralized creature with ALL of the abilities, at least on the arguments that some people are providing, which don't account for the fact that, as far as I am aware, Loyalty Abilities are not considered to be Activated abilities.
so yeah. cool idea, but not that worth it
Not to mention, this combination also destroys all of your own lands. Lands are permanents, and therefore are turned into artifacts with Mycocynth Lattice, and then are turned into 0/0 creatures by Marsh of the Machines. State-based effect, your lands die. This does also affect your opponent, but you better be able to win with what you have on the board already.
Sorry, I missed the master of Etherium, but with only one of him in the deck, it's kinda iffy being able to pull this combination off. I would find room for 3 more Masters.
just so you know someone on mtgcombos.com tried this on mag online and it worked
to lepellier: yea i know the combos only 18 cards so you can add more to make it 60 or whatever and then it would be easier to pull it off but still near impossible
Can use Eye of Ugin, for serching for artifact creature once make all artifacts and creacters, and add in a way to make them Eldrrazi, and stuff to lower there cost can make it faster , vary interested in the combo so need to get it worked out will be amazing
i like the idea i ran the board with it man
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stop hating on magic man it was a good idea
Rule 606.3 is disappointing. In a just universe, this combo works.
I love finding things like this and doing it just to make people say wtf. like cheating Blightsteel Colossus in on t3 and being standard legal. Totally combo based but happens more often than you think. Check out my mono Black please.. http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=184728
Plz check out my deck http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=186113
nice idea, but good luck staying alive long enough, but if you get that many karn's then use his start over and have basically their whole deck against them... but too many cards for that single combo.
Despite it working on MtG Online as you have stated, I'd be inclined to disagree with the combo. As Jellow said, the abilities are refereed to as "Loyalty" abilities, not Act abilities. But don't get me wrong, it was a fine idea and I would love to see it work, but I'm just not seeing it.
I'm inclined to agree with IamAlphGeek. However I'd add in a fortune thief just to avoid death by global spell damage.
Don't be so naive you guys, use your mind and think for yourselves, this thing work on magic online because it's a program a a program is full of mistakes, nobody thought of that possibility so the computer don't know how to react. The first mistake you can read here http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50527, the rules for Mycocynth Lattice state clearly that only permanents in the battlefield are artifacts therefore any planeswalker in the top of a library isn't in the field therefore it's not an artifact and therefore cannot have his skills used by the skill borrower it works on magic online because the programmer probably uses the same codes for any abilities and like PhoenixGraphix said up there the cost is +x : put counters on the PLANESWALKER, even with the name changed to loyaty abilities that is just a layout like change "in play" for "battlefield" it doesn't change the fact that only a planeswalker can activate a planeswalker abilities because the ability says put/remove counters on the PLANESWALKER, not creature, not card and Experiment Kraj really is an artifact, an artifact creature, a creature and really has the planeswalker abilities put can't activate them because he is not a PLANESWALKER. Don't get me wrong I loved the idea it's really cool and I would loved if it really worked, i have a lot of decks with combos that are just not worth the trouble like this one, I play this game for combos like this, but it doesn't work, you may ask any judge, the rules are pretty clear in this one, just read and accept that whoever did the program just made it wrong.
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See.. You're actually kinda wrong there. As was pointed out by Jellow3579, rule 606.3 clearly states that Loyalty abilities are for permanents, not exclusively planeswalkers so this combo does work, but only once per turn. It's kind of like how when a card says "X: *Cardname* gets flying until end of turn," the Kraj can still use that ability for itself, even though it doesn't share the same name. The rules basically allow it to work as "this permanent" instead of *cardname*. Hope that kind of makes sense...
But again, I say, they're Loyalty abilities, not Activated Abilities. Unless it says it's an Activated Ability, it isn't.
That's like saying cards with enters the battlefield effects aren't triggered abilities because they don't say triggered on the card. Loyalty abilities are a form of activated abilities that are activated through loyalty counters. They're activated abilities but by stating that they are a specific kind (loyalty), it negates the need for additional text such as that it is only sorcery speed abilities and such as it is then implied by being a loyalty ability. The following is a link to the magicthegathering website page discussing the general rules for planeswalkers. Take notice of the first sentence under the heading of "Planeswalker Abilities." It says, "Each planeswalker has a number of activated abilities on it." Seems pretty clear to me... Here's the link: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/rules/planeswalkers
Did I say on the card? I don't think so. If that were the case, it would say Loyalty ability on it. I'm saying in the comprehensive rules. If they are, that's my mistake, I believe when I originally made my point, I stated, as far as I'm aware.
You didn't specify... And I'm just pointing out that it is actually part of the rules, that's all... Interestingly enough, however, paying the morph cost on a facedown creature is not an activated ability (not that it's entirely relevant, but just some bonus trivia).
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There is too much debate and you are looking over the obvious. Planeswalkers are "Players". Effects that target player effect planewalkers not abilities that target creatures.
That's accounted for, actually. Planeswalkers are permanents.Mycosynth makes all permanents artifacts and March of Machines makes all non creature artifacts into creatures.
Where you're getting confused is that cards that deal direct damage to players (aka Lightning Bolt) don't say it can deal damage to Planeswalkers. When 'walkers were printed they cleared up this problem by stating that to hit the 'walker with a Lightning Bolt, you have to target the player who controls it and then choose to redirect the damage to the 'walker. However, cards like Beast Within or Vindicate can still directly hit the Planeswalker because it says "target permanent."
Here's something. Which has more priority? If you make a planeswalker an artifact, then a creature, it would become a 0/0 creature. Without any extra ability giving it +X/+X, would it be removed from the battlefield or would it stay because of loyalty counters? It would meet the requirements for both staying in play and being sent to the graveyard.
It's power and toughness are equal to it's mana cost, as noted in March of Machines.
there are so many cards needed for the combo. i dont think many people would last long enough to fire the combo. nevertheless im amazed at the creativity. good job for thinking up something like this. i like it. btw kindly help with my latest deck. i would appreciate it. thank you :D http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=186038 and if you can please comment also on my angel soldier deck? thanks
To be honest... I love playing planeswalkers but before you finally get this combo together, 99% of my opponents would have killed me already, or would have killed the combo before it all works out... Nice idea, but not really effective though... Cheers
I LIKE PIE!.......
i used this idea but used the myr welder inf. mana combo and a staff of domination and drew all the cards i needed had them all out by my 6-8 turn . i really liked it in multi player
I dont know if anyone else said this already because im to lazy to look at all of these,but you put the +1/+1 counter on CREATURES due to Kraj, and with the exception of Gideon Jura, you cant put a counter on planeswalkers, cause they arent creatures, theyre planeswalkers
You turn them into creatures using the Lattice and March of the Machines... Complicated but neat process.
Experiment Kraj stated it has the activated abilities of all creatures. Would you be allowed to put trust counters on it and them stay, or...?
606.2. An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities. It are activated abilities, this is also the reason why you can disable Planeswalkers with Phyrexian Revoker. So in theory, this should work.
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hey guys i need some help here =). i tried to build a good elf deck without rare cards and as cheap as possible but still playable ^^. Here is the result : http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=190001 I think that it would work quite well but before i buy the cards i would like to here some opinions =)
Okay, just to sort of put things to rest (I didn't know that this argument would continue on this long!), rule 306.5 from the comprehensive rulebook states "Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.". Therefore, Kraj or any other creature cannot use Planeswalker abilities because the modification of Loyalty is a requirement for the ability's activation.
Modification of Loyalty is not necessary to use loyalty abilities. The only thing a permanent needs in order to use loyalty abilities is loyalty counters. On a planeswalker this would change loyalty. It doesn't on a creature, because a creature has no Loyalty. Loyalty and loyalty counters are distinct and different. Loyalty is a "measurement" that only planeswalkers use. It determines 2 things:How many loyalty counters Planeswalkers enter with 306.5a and 306.5bWhat happens when a Planeswalker has 0 loyalty (I.E. no counters) 306.8 306.9Permanents with Loyalty abilities and Loyalty counters on them can use loyalty abilities. they just aren't subject to the rules of their "Loyalty being reduced to 0 from lack of loyalty counters"Think of Loyalty as a Planeswalker's version of toughness, and it should help. (IE: Only creatures have toughness, but they're not the only thing that can be dealt damage)
Now I'm not sure if the ability works or not, but that is really cool. Hard to make but it would be funny to watch your opponents face.... Awesome idea/deck!
MTG rule 602.2 (What is a Loyalty ability and what cards use 'em)"An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities."Loyalty abilities are a variety of Activated Ability. Sometimes, Non-Planeswalkers can use Loyalty abilities. (Lattice+March=Planeswalker is now a creature. Quicksilver Elemental plz...)MTG 110.1 (Defining Permanents)"A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it‘s moved to another zone by an effect or rule."Lattice turns permanents into artifacts. things not on the battlefield aren't permanents. Lattice does not turn things which are not on the field into artifacts. Much to my sadness, Planeswalkers on op of libraries are not permanents, and therefore not artifacts. (sorry skill borrower)