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Once again, played on mws, came across a dredge deck. Thought it was cool, as usual, decided to do my own. So basically, point here is to get 3 creatures on the field, a dread return in the graveyard, and as many bridges from below as possible. Once that's done, sac 3 creatures, for dread return's flashback, each triggering bridge from beyond. hopefully i'll have 4 bridge, leading to 12 2/2 zombies. Bring back a flame kin zealot, and i'll be swinging with 12 3/2s, now with haste. for a total of 36 damage. Whatsup. Don't know if this is the best build... but hey, my first shot at dredge. My only concern is graveyard hate.. which I think will eff this deck up majorly. Prob. will sideboard 4 null rod, that may do it. Not quite sure, but suggestions are always welcome. (:
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lol I knew you were a graveplayer dude. First Reanimator, now Dredge...If I were you I'd get familiar with all the anti-gravehate tech out there =]
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Oh, and I'll give this a better look-over later on. I need to friggin sleep...
What can I say, I love absurd recursion. And graveyard tech does that the best. :D Yeah, as of now I only know of the nihil spellbomb, and the black leyline, lol. Anddddd relic of progenitus. Hence null rod sideboard. But what are the main forms of graveyard hate? I can't really do anything about bojuka bog... but the ones I can do something about, I'd like to know of. (:
Oh hell, there's a lot of grave hate...I've recently seen Ravenous Trap as a nasty SB choice because it can be used in any color, and it wrecks Dredge (and reanimator to a lesser extent). Tormod's Crypt is another one I see frequently. But there's a ton of them =/ Your design has some weird things about it, but overall looks good. I'd have to play against it to really get a feel for what's "off" about it, but something is...
Well.... that sucks LOL. And yeah, I only found out what dredge really was once I played against it, lol. But in all honesty, I don't think dredge is really the best deck. All somebody needs to do is sacrifice a creature, and my whole game plan is shot. Once bridge leaves the grave, I lose. I don't think I'll really be doing much with this deck.
I would suggest karador, he is awesome with dredge!
once again, not bad idea. O but i still think dredge is subdued...
Hmmm, so this is one of the new confangled Ichorid-Bloodghast hybrids. Neat. Something to think about is replacing Visions of Beyond with Breakthrough, which if you read carefully says 'you win the game, if you're playing dredge'.
<_< It really does. With Breakthrough and LED, it's like wizards was saying "Hey, if you play Dredge we'll give you Black Lotus AND Ancestral Recall!" I myself made a Dredge...ish thingy. I can attest that both those are VERY good things to consider =]
breakthrough is pretty nice... think I'll do so, lol. thanks :'D but what's led? xD
Storm's favourite child; Lion's Eye Diamond.
LED = Lion's Eye Diamond. It's Black Lotus that makes you discard your hand as an additional cost. The thing is, the downside isn't really that bad, especially to Legacy players...in some cases it can be argued the card is BETTER even...
Ahhhhhh I see, I see. well I still think dredge is slow... so Iunno, lol. i think the whole plan is ruined by my opp. sacing a creature. :/
... I run Dredge competitively, it can outrace legacy combo decks... It's reputation is that there is 'no interaction between the two players whatsoever', because almost without fail it goes off turn two for the normal Ichorid builds.
...whats the combo that allows it to go off turn 2?
A lot of zombies with haste? It works by essentially taking your deck, flipping it over, and then saying you play all of it. Welcome to dredge lol
lol funny quote of the night goes toooo.... It's true though, LED is almost essential, and Breakthrough is frickin absurd... Best description of Dredge I've heard was, "Someone realized that if he does all the things he should NEVER do with a deck, and then does them all at once, the laws of excessive nonsense somehow turn out a win."
ahhh I see. hahaha. so what do you guys suggest changing?
For one thing, I suggest less Dread Return targets maindeck. I use two dedicated targets personally, but some people run more. Thoughtseize is actually sub-par in Dredge, and the deck can make better use of Cabal Therapy than almost any other, I suggest using that to its fullest. I personally don't know how to deal with the hybrids that well since I've never worked on one, but in normal Dredge Cephalid Coliseum is amaaaaazing. A playset of Firestorm in the SB is pretty awesome since it's essentially an uncounterable discard outlet, and I also run three copies of Winds of Change for backup. Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge are really great game two, as it balances out your game against hate. Null Rod is occasionally used, but often found inferior in the design. For other troublesome permanents there's always Terastodon, Angel of Despair, ect. Since you have a rainbow landbase, it's easy enough to run Tireless Tribe. It's a nice cheap outlet, and it can chump block like a boss. More Dredge, and I can't stress this enough. Dredge wins because it's reliable, and fast. I run pretty much the full complement of the highest dredgers, except I took out the fourth thug for a Darkblast.
hmmm... that's a lot to take in at the moment, LOL. looks like I've got my work cut out for me. i'll try this in the morning.. atm my mind is standard-focused, lol. thanks, though. i appreciate it a lot (:
Hey Ethan. I read through some of the comments and well, here's some thoughts... First off, Iona is a clutch part of the deck because like you'd mentioned, all it takes is one sacrifice and they've gotten rid of your Bridges. Thankfully, not many players play a ton of creatures that self-sacrifice and ruin your day. A fourth Ichorid is almost a must, as half your games it can be/is crucial to your game play. You really only need 1 Flame-Kin, 2 at most, as you should be able to also dredge your entire deck within 3 turns, max. The biggest problem with your deck as it stands is that you have 7 total dredge cards (or am I missing something?). You NEED another Imp and probably even a couple Golgari Thugs wouldn't hurt. I agree on Thoughtsieze actually being relatively weak for dredge decks. Your deck is super mana intensive, in that it runs a bunch of stuff to do in the 1st 2 turns or so and doesn't have time/mana to spare for Thoughtsiezing if you want to combo off quick/right. Elesh Norn isn't the worst as a target, though I think she is probably not quite as useful, at least in the maindeck. Probably could easily drop her to the sideboard. While I mentioned 3 Flame-Kin being too much, the same holds true for Dread Return. 2 Should be plenty. A couple final things to note with a deck like dredge - It is hands down one of the most consistent and powerful decks in all of Legacy, but it is incredibly skill intensive. Do NOT go into any tournaments expecting to win without a great deal of playtesting as you will get rocked as a result. Very few pros fully know how to handle the deck without a healthy amount of testing. Again, it is incredibly powerful, but fairly easy to hate out. Your biggest enemy is actually Leyline of the Void as people can side these into any deck and have been known to win games by mulliganing down to absurd numbers like 3 just to find the Leyline and have won as a result, particularly against less experienced dredgers. So, against an unprepared field, dredge likely will dominate if piloted right. Against an even semi-prepared metagame, dredge will likely struggle to make top 32 even. For fun, check out the really cool "manaless dredge" deck that just dominated at the Star City Games tournament in Cincinnati. It completely rapes blue decks by not actually casting spells hardly at all or using any mana - practically negating every counter in their decks.:)
That manaless dredge was so cool! took me a while to fully understand it, but after I got it, it was so sick! And I've made changes accordingly to everything you guys have pointed out. :) Still not really familiar with dredge.. but how does that look, now? The only thing that stops me from seriously committing to dredge is as you said, it's so easy to hate out. :/ reanimator is also easy enough to hate out, but show and tell really backs it up. so does null rod. I feel with dredge a lot of cards are useless to really try and side in, because they'll just wind up in the graveyard. Maybe I just don't fully understand, though. :/ as always though, thank you very much! (: I always appreciate good advice. :'D
Looking pretty solid. As always, playtesting is the key to figuring out the correct numbers now, though. I would still look to add a 4th Ichorid somehow, and definitely swap one Thug for a 4th Imp. The entire point of the dredge cards is basically only to dredge and nothing more. That being the case, Imp is clearly superior to the Thug as the extra card can be critical. Other than that, you're off to a great start and looks like a solid starting point and isn't too netdecky. Dredge decks naturally always look fairly similar of course, because the engine is so specific and whatnot, but I like what you have going. As always, best of luck.:)
Why thank you, (: Playtesting is the key, you're right. and I plan to do much of it. especially since this deck is farrrrrrrrr cheaper than my reanimator, LOL. i'm actually glad this isn't net-deck-y. lol i didn't really google up any dredge decks for this. just played a few on mws and saw how they went... then built accordingly
Yo Ethan, do you have any tribal decks?
Lol thanks for the bump ;] but sadly No, I do not : [
=O Well that's a shame...=/
I really should...
...and okay, stupid question here. but if I have 2 dredgers in my graveyard, and they both have dredge 5. can I dredge 10 to get them both back in my hand?
You should man, it's tons of fun =P Oh, and dredge is activated as a substitute to drawing a card. For this reason, each use of Dredge requires a draw clause. If you had 2 in the yard, and had used something that let you draw 3 cards, you could dredge for 5 to get one back, draw a card, then dredge 5 to get the other back too! (Or any other combination of that)
hows it work
get creatures in the grave. get 3 creatures onto the field. then sacrifice them all to dread return. bridge from below will drigger if it's in your graveyard. giving you 2/2 zombies. :'D
If you up the LED count to 4, you can get access to some ridiculous first turns with the addition of Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis. The only reason I'm not running LEDs in my build... Is because I only have 1! A couple of alternative options are to run Tireless Tribe or Phantasmagorian for Putrid Imp. I'd even strongly suggest Phantasmagorian if you decide to up the LED count; when your entire hand is gone it will let you get your dredgers back into the graveyard. The deck plays against hate like a champ to be honest; just keep in mind which deck you're playing against, consider the options they have to hate you out, and sideboard appropriately. Every deck has access to Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, which Pithing Needle and Nature's Claim can force to be popped early. Black decks tend to run Bokuja Bog, Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, and Ravenous Trap; Ravenous Trap is hard to get around, but Stifle and Chain of Vapor / Nature's Claim take care of the other two. White and Green decks can run Wheel of Sun and Moon, which can likewise be taken care of by Chain and Claim... These decks can all also run Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, and Powder Keg; all of which can be forced out early with Chain and Claim, as well as Pithing Needle. Don't forget about Cabal Therapy either; if you feel like they have an out, feel free to guess and check. ;p
Forgot about Lands and Enchantress; Lands plays Glacial Chasm, and Enchantress runs Elephant Grass. Without using Terrastadon or Angel of Despair, Glacial Chasm is hard to play around, but Elephant Grass is no different than the other grave-hates.