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The Eldrazi Titan is a trigger so you will mill their entire library til there are no cards left, then the trigger goes next the stack to shuffle it all back. You can respond to the trigger, exiling the Eldrazi and then do it again next turn (or with a second grindstone) with no shuffle, Stifle the trigger so the shuffle doesn't happen or just "target/all player(s) draw(s) a card" effect.

The Colossus is a replacement effect, two cards do not reach the graveyard that share a color so the effect ends there. You can repeat it and mill them until they reach the Colossus again and eventually they will have to draw the colossus and then the next draw they will die. Obviously this is not ideal but the odds are you will have more mill effects in the deck than just these two cards or it will be an alternate win condition anyway.

Mill is still a perfectly viable strategy and these "counter" cards do not stop it, you just have to be prepared for them. Milling has never really been a "strong" strategy since you only have to deal 20 damage vs 60+ cards milled. These are all extremely expensive CMC cards as well so they are not appearing in a lot of decks. A speed aggro deck wouldn't play them. A burn deck wouldn't play them. Tribal/theme decks wouldn't play them (unless they were the theme/tribe). Etc... Ramp/control are the only archetypes that would really play them.

There are counters to every strategy, that does not mean the strategy isn't valid. There are ways to "counter" uncounterable spells or deal damage to creatures with protection.

I see what your saying with the eldrazi about there ability going on the stack. But i don't know, I feel that alot of people used to play mill and it was a more formidable strategy before the eldrazi came out. But since that block came out it's been becoming a harder and harder way to win with more cards coming out that put a big stopper in their strategy.

Mill them all out and suddenly they return their whole graveyard with elixir of immortality (which a ton of decks are running now a days) or one of the titans, ect...

The card i can see being a mill decks best friend is rest in peace, that card would change the game. And i know every strategy has its counter to it, but i feel that milling is the easiest one to defend against now a days. You can defend against it pretty easily with almost any color deck.

Don't get me wrong I've seen some powerful mill decks, but I feel it's losing it's potential more and more, I mean with some decks milling them out even helps them.

Though as i stated, I do feel that Rest In Peace is an amazing add for a mill deck, that card really changes what being milled out means, instead of graveyard they are just gone forever, powerful enchantment, especially for 2 mana.

I've took a painterstone deck to a legacy tournament once. I won against a show and tell deck running both Emrakul and Progenitus. Emrakul isn't a problem like _Epsilon_ pointed out, you just need a 3th combo piece that removes the yard like Tormod's Crypt (which I had 3x in my sideboard). I played 4 trinket mage so that wasn't to hard. Progenitus is tricky and I'm not sure it's still legal to mill until only Progenitus remains with the rules about slow play and infinite loops.

_Epsilon_: are you up to date on the slow play rule change and how it affects milling cards like progenitus? Is it enough to point out to a judge that you repeat the process until only progenitus remains or is it a situation where you can't specify how many times you will repeat the process and have to stop the loop. I'm guessing it isn't an issue in this case.

[QUOTE=Seth]_Epsilon_: are you up to date on the slow play rule change and how it affects milling cards like progenitus? Is it enough to point out to a judge that you repeat the process until only progenitus remains or is it a situation where you can't specify how many times you will repeat the process and have to stop the loop. I'm guessing it isn't an issue in this case.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure that is relevant here... The grindstone/servant loop ends when the replacement effect happens because two cards do not hit the graveyard to share a color and repeat the loop. You have to start over from there but it only shuffles that one card. If you're playing Archive Traps and other mill effects on top of the combo finish, You're still milling a LOT of cards every turn and eventually they will end up drawing the problem card and the combo will finish milling their yard. It's a tap ability though so you can't just repeat it infinitely without a lot of additional setup. Even so, you could specify since it would take repeating it a maximum of however many cards are left in their deck.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]I'm not sure that is relevant here... The grindstone/servant loop ends when the replacement effect happens because two cards do not hit the graveyard to share a color and repeat the loop. [/QUOTE]

you're right ofcourse, I didn't even concider that it makes the loop end. That pretty much ruins the combo in competitive legacy matchups, repeating the process multiple times against another combo deck isn't all that likely.
That said there are but few decks that run Progenitus or simular cards so it's not really a reason not to play the deck.

In a meta where decks like Painterstone are common Planar Void seems like a good sideboard option. It's easier to play then Leyline and doesn't force you in playing a full set, protects against grindstone and Red decks can't get rid of it. It's a shame that Rest in Peace is 2 mana, else I would probably concider playing it in my UWr BladeControl. Not that it's bad ofcourse, it's allround good against everything that runs Knight of the Reliquary, Loam, Goyf as well as more focussed graveyard strategies. But on the draw it's just to slow against Dredge and Reanimator.

[QUOTE=Seth]I've took a painterstone deck to a legacy tournament once. I won against a show and tell deck running both Emrakul and Progenitus. Emrakul isn't a problem like _Epsilon_ pointed out, you just need a 3th combo piece that removes the yard like Tormod's Crypt (which I had 3x in my sideboard). I played 4 trinket mage so that wasn't to hard. Progenitus is tricky and I'm not sure it's still legal to mill until only Progenitus remains with the rules about slow play and infinite loops..[/QUOTE]

Wow thats cool! Did you just exile his graveyard with tormod's crypt before emrakuls ability triggered it all back into his library? Wouldn't emrakuls ability gain priorty btw as soon as he hits the graveyard, even before grindstone is finished milling?

I never thought about using tormods crypt tho to counteract that, good idea, as soon as emrakul hits the graveyard can tormods crypt exile him and the graveyard before he goes back i assume?

If that's a problem you can just play a hive mind. followed by copy enchantment on hive mind. Then play Paradigm shift pass turn and win. This exiles all those cards that were bugging you. And please try it if you can because exiling every players graveyard and library (doesn't matter if there are a million players) for a colorless and a blue if amazing.

every spell and or ability has to resolve completely before another can resolve, this means that grindstone keeps on milling until its condition fails. Emrakul goes to the graveyard and his ability sits on the stack until grindstones ability is complete. Once grindstone is finished and all cards are in the graveyard, even with multiple emrakuls in the yard and multiple triggers on the stack you just respond with Tormod's crypt and exile the yard. Then the triggers resolve but they have nothing to shuffle back.

[QUOTE=Seth]you're right ofcourse, I didn't even concider that it makes the loop end. That pretty much ruins the combo in competitive legacy matchups, repeating the process multiple times against another combo deck isn't all that likely.
That said there are but few decks that run Progenitus or simular cards so it's not really a reason not to play the deck.

In a meta where decks like Painterstone are common Planar Void seems like a good sideboard option. It's easier to play then Leyline and doesn't force you in playing a full set, protects against grindstone and Red decks can't get rid of it. It's a shame that Rest in Peace is 2 mana, else I would probably concider playing it in my UWr BladeControl. Not that it's bad ofcourse, it's allround good against everything that runs Knight of the Reliquary, Loam, Goyf as well as more focussed graveyard strategies. But on the draw it's just to slow against Dredge and Reanimator.[/QUOTE]

The "problem" with that is that countering one two-card mill strategy just opens up another and you're providing the one card for that one. Helm of Obedience loves your RIP/Void.

I know I said I don't like mill, and I don't feel its strong enough of a win....But I went ahead and broke down and built one...It's not a conventional mill tho, I throw my own twist to it and made it completely different style of mill to play (at least in my eyes I think it's different haha)

http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=415707

I've play tested it twice now, and it worked exactly how i wanted it to, so I'm pretty happy with it. Any suggestions for it?

Try to keep in mind that the object of the deck is not necessarily to mill the opponents to death, it's more using mill to benefit my creatures and my side of the field..Although i can win by mill if it comes down to it...

Just had one of the shortest mill games in EDH...

Playing my new Lazav deck, I got out Crypt Ghast into a Lazav with whispersilk cloak on him. Next turn put out Consuming Aberration, copied it with Stolen Identity, swung with Lazav and made a third copy. Next turn I cast Fabricate to get Altar of Dementia and then Mind Grind'ed for 4. At this point everyone was pretty much milled out but I sac'ed the huge tokens to the altar to mill them the rest of their libraries.

One player had Vigor in their deck so it shuffled after the mill but I had a Psychic Surgery in play from turn 2 so it got exiled. Luckily no Eldrazi but I would have fabricated for a Nihil Spellbomb if any of the decks had one...

He doesn't usually win via mill since it's a smaller theme in the deck but that was pretty scary fast for a non-combo mill win... turn 7-8 ish.

Gatecrash definitely added some strong mill cards.

I will agree that gatecrash made mill blow up, Lazav is absolutely amazing and I'm really liking this mind funeral style cards they have themed with dimir.


My first mill deck that I've made just became alot more interesting since gatecrash, I mean duskmantle guildmage is just a mean card to run in a mill based deck and that consuming aberration and mind grind make mill very very multiplayer viable which i was initially having trouble doing with a mill deck.

I bet your Lazav EDH deck is really fun, if i make an EDH deck he's on my mind for a commander

After playing quite a few games with my Lazav deck, I've noticed that one of the most devastating "combos" is Undead Alchemist + Altar of Dementia. Once you start some mill, it's all but a self sustaining loop until the deck is milled. Most EDH decks have 20-40 creatures out of necessity so there's a pretty good chance saccing a zombie token will create another zombie token. Any global buffs, Extractor Demon, Cloned copies of the alchemist, Lazav copying Master Biomancer, etc will usually result in a win at instant speed during your opponent's turn (so the alchemist's exile will still exile Eldrazi due to the stack order) and they'll die to their draw step.

It's amazing how dangerous mill has become since the release of Gatecrash... Milling to hit lands puts it a lot closer to a "life total" than it was since you can approach it by land count rather than total library size.

Ok fuck it, list me the cards I need to pick up or at least look into (especially from Gatecrash) for a mill theme. I don't play often anymore but one of the last things I traded last year was Altar of Dementia and I want to use it so I'm building me a new EDH.

so what HAS to be in there?

[QUOTE=Seth]Ok fuck it, list me the cards I need to pick up or at least look into (especially from Gatecrash) for a mill theme. I don't play often anymore but one of the last things I traded last year was Altar of Dementia and I want to use it so I'm building me a new EDH.

so what HAS to be in there?[/QUOTE]

I may not give as good as a list as epsilon but i'll try to through you some good card ideas.

Duskmantle Guildmage in my mind is a must add. He's really cool combo-ed with Mindcrank
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind is pretty good.
Mind Grind is an interesting card if you have plenty of mana to dump into it.
Consuming Aberration is pretty neat too.
Undercity Informer is a card i've been really fond of in this set.


ummmmm That's at least an idea of some stuff to look at from gatecrash, I'm sure Epsilon, NightLoki, or some other people might have some more opinions on it maybe even some better choices =p

I've thought of making a land hate based mill theme, like throwing in Undercity Informer, Mind Funeral, Mind Grind, Consuming Aberration, Balustrade Spy, and Ghost Quarter.

It might not be the most competitive of decks but i bet it would be really fun to play. Just throw in early mill options like Tome Scour and Mind Sculpt. =]

Thanks man, I've put something together last night with the cards I had, I'll post it up once I get the chance.

no problem, I'm interested to see what you put together

I'm just a terrible human being, so when i think mill i think either mindcrank/bloodchief ascension for the infi, or rest in peace/Grindstone (or Leyline of the Void instead of RIP)

Chewrida pretty much covered the new additions from Gatecrash. Grisly Spectacle might be playable and Crypt Ghast definitely is along with the X mill spells.

Throw in some of the better Innistrad block options and you've got a pretty decent base that can easily mill a deck or still demolish someone through damage.

Mindshrieker
Trepanation Blade
Undead Alchemist
Gravecrawler (combos with Alchemist and Informer)
Havengul Lich - Play everything they're milling...
Increasing Confusion - Not quite as strong as mind grind but still potentially crippling.
Thought Scour - Also nuts if you get a Tamiyo emblem... draw 3 for U is crazy.

Clone effects can also be extremely powerful with the Aberration, Alchemist, and several other prime copy targets.

I have a few milling strategies in my deck so far but I'm seeing it as an alternative win. To many people can get around getting milled and although I do pack graveyard removal to defeat eldrazi shuffle back and such it does make it that much harder to mill poeple and you don't want to be burning resources only to have the other guy discard a kozilek to survival of the fittest or something like that.

I still have to get the new cards so those are not part of the package yet.

I think if you're playing Tome Scour and Mind Sculpt in EDH you're destroying your own deck. You're not getting enough in return for the card disadvantage you're creating and in multiplayer it's even worse.

So far the suggestion Epsilon made of playing Undead Alchemist + Altar of Dementia is what I liked best. It's subtle enough not to make your deck THE COMBO DECK, it's more of a strong synergy and both cards do well on their own.

[QUOTE=NightLoki]I'm just a terrible human being, so when i think mill i think either mindcrank/bloodchief ascension for the infi, or rest in peace/Grindstone (or Leyline of the Void instead of RIP)[/QUOTE]

I'm keeping Mindcrank but I just kicked out bloodchief ascension because it's something that takes multiple turns to get online which feels like win more to me. Mindcrank alone is pretty effective in multiple ways. My general is The Mimeoplasm so my theme is more divers then just milling.

I like the idea of Rest in Peace in EDH, not for this deck as it's not in my colors and would mess with my own strategy but killing graveyards when you don't need your own is just very disrupting to a lot of players.

My suggestions were mainly towards standard (or EDH where everything is viable) as extended has a lot more ways of negating the effects of mill and they already had the void/helm or servant/stone combos which are infinitely more effective.

Legacy does have a turn 1 self mill combo deck based around a no land combo deck and milling yourself with Informer or Spy.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]Legacy does have a turn 1 self mill combo deck based around a no land combo deck and milling yourself with Informer or Spy.[/QUOTE]

Legacy self mill startegies are only effective in a meta where everyone forgot they exist.

[QUOTE=Seth]I'm keeping Mindcrank but I just kicked out bloodchief ascension because it's something that takes multiple turns to get online which feels like win more to me. Mindcrank alone is pretty effective in multiple ways. My general is The Mimeoplasm so my theme is more divers then just milling.[/QUOTE]

As I stated before Duskmantle Guildmage and Mindcrank work amazingly together. His first activated ability is the same as Bloodchief Ascension so it's a lot easier to get the combo rolling instead of waiting for bloodchief to get it's counters. I know you said you have't incorporated gatecrash cards much yet since you haven't gotten any, but it's a thought if you planned on getting anything from that set.

[QUOTE=Seth]Legacy self mill startegies are only effective in a meta where everyone forgot they exist.[/QUOTE]

This happens frequently, or they think that 1-2 pieces of hate will work (it won't).

[QUOTE=Chewrida]As I stated before Duskmantle Guildmage and Mindcrank work amazingly together. His first activated ability is the same as Bloodchief Ascension so it's a lot easier to get the combo rolling instead of waiting for bloodchief to get it's counters. I know you said you have't incorporated gatecrash cards much yet since you haven't gotten any, but it's a thought if you planned on getting anything from that set.[/QUOTE]

I missed that, that is a great alternative to Bloodchief and since I'm running Survival of the Fittest the creature part is fetchable.
thanks man!!

I think I'll order Stolen Identity, Mind Grind, Consuming Aberration and Duskmantle Guildmage and try to make room for them

[QUOTE=NightLoki;37570]This happens frequently, or they think that 1-2 pieces of hate will work (it won't).[/QUOTE]

Yeah I have to agree with that although over here the meta is more stable then the Star City Opens appear to be. You have a lot of people (most I think) that just play their deck and don't meta game. I'm a big metagamer myself.
What I also see a lot is poeple that don't know how to handle combo decks like Ichorid, Reanimator and its even worse with more exotic decks (take Hulk Combo for instance that can just take the field by surprise because no one knows what it does). Many people just don't recognize the key cards makeing their counterspells (that are afterall the most allround hate you can run) far less effective. Then there are days that people just rape you with Cabal Therapy (the god card of the skillful combo player) every single game and you are just helpless against their combo.

no problem, I wanna make a deck sometime with that combo involved =] I think you said this is an EDH deck, I've never been able to get into that format much, I did build a pretty effective Rhys the Redeemed EDH deck once but I took it apart. It was just missing something, couldnt figure out what and I didn't have enough people that played EDH to face and if I'm not gonna face anyone I'd rather not sink all my good cards into it haha. But the format still interests me, so if you get the time I'd like to see how this one with the mimeoplasm is. Or at least let me know how it runs =p I like these ideas with the Alter of Dementia and the things you and Epsilon have been talking about, I was thinking about constructing another EDH deck sometime but who knows =p

I'll put it up soon

Pretty much everyone I know switched to Commander for casual play, it's a pretty well balanced format for multiplayer games and when you play these same (multiplayer focussed) decks 1 on 1 or even with 3 players (something that just never seems to work well with 60 card decks) it's still great fun.
It's also a nice contrast to legacy, the only competitive format I enjoy to play. Switching between the two keeps things interesting. That's one of the reasons I hate Commander as a 1 on 1 format, once people start building towards speed you basically get a less consistent form of legacy, which means more frustration and less fun.

I see how it would be fun for casual play, it takes the worry of turn 2 and 3 losses out of the way. But I guess if I'm gonna play casual I just prefer to construct 60 decks and playing legacy casual. Following all the stipulations for legacy other than not trying to build a deck to win tournaments. haha I don't even have the money (to spare) to construct a tournament worthy legacy deck.

If more people I knew played EDH I might give it more of a try.

For me the problem is that now that I've played competitive legacy for a few years I've become incapable of building a 60 card deck that is not optimized because I don't know where to draw the line (and I'm not limited by card choice). What is accepted and what is not, it's just not clear in casual play and it differs from opponent to opponent so its easier to just play legacy and go all in, enjoy the battle, the decision making rather then the building.
Multiplayer formats are different because you are not holding back you're just building with a different strategy/aim in mind, a legacy deck in theory can't win a multiplayer game because it's not build to last, it's build to take out 1 opponent quickly or run out of gas and die. So I can build a multiplayer deck without holding back and it'll feel more like a casual slower deck that can be played against just about anyone. I also like the singleton nature, it makes deck building so much easier and faster for me. I just have this rough formula in my brain that works.


Anyway I had a blast last night playing my new EDH deck, I had not played in over a month and I just really enjoyed playing again. My Mimeoplasm combo deck was insane. I won 2 games on Undead Alchemist + Altar of Dementia with crazyness like my opponent shooting down Undead Alchemist, I play Mesmeric Orb, next turn mill myself for like 15 (milling my own Victimize and Lord of Extinction), play eternal witness, take victimize from my yard, play victimize sacking witness and returning Undead Alchemist and Lord of Extinction, sac Lord to Altar of Dementia milling my opponent for 45 cards, Alchemist goes crazy :)

Lord of extinction is a really cool card, and yea I really like that undead alchemist altar of dementia combo you guys have been talking about, that's really cool. And sounds like you had a pretty good game haha, =]

I bet my views on casual and legacy would change if i had the cards I needed at my disposal =p Also I build every casual deck thinking about multiplayer instead of 1v1. To me 1v1 is competitive and I would never build a casual 1v1. I have some decks I would consider competitive 1v1, not meant for legacy but for modern more or less. Since I don't unfortunately legacy is a more casual format for me, maybe one day i'll put some money forward to try to build a more competitive legacy deck, but until then I'll save money and if my decks are gonna be competitive I'll make modern and standard haha. Maybe I can get some people to start playing EDH and I can finally play some of that as well.