Discussion Forum

It's looking so far like a set geared toward limited. The gatekeepers are looking to be good with at least two guildgates in your color, plus with the new booster pack format in DGM giving more gates, they will almost certainly be giving their additional effect (at the prerelease) each time. Ral Zarek was VERY dissapointing, and although it is 30$ atm, look for it to be the next Vraska, since unless grixis becomes viable, he wont be played often in standard. If a good 2 cmc evolve comes out, Vorel could be good, since him with and addition 2 drop really stabilize the simic/bant aggro curve. The only playable champ though as of now is the Azorius one, since Restoration Angel is still standard. Limited bombs are everywere, with Master of Cruelties, Trostani's Summoner, and Armed // Dangerous leading the pack in killing power. Render Silent is strictly worse than dissipate at the moment, but is flavorful. Overall, I'm excited for the prerelease, but not the coming Standard.

I have to agree. It doesn't seem like they were thinking of standard (not that I play standard tourneys, too expensive for me) It sorta looks like they were just trying to release a new mass of cards. I did hear a while back that Wizards were wanting to slow standard down though. Maybe that is what they are trying to do with Dragon's Maze? Would make some sense with the cards they have released so far. Anxious to see what other new toys this set has. :D

Those Gatekeepers are limited GOLD. Gates are gonna be everywhere and at the common slot in a 3 color format, you could get 2-4 Gatekeepers at the prerelease in your colors. I'm looking forward to this limited format intensely, as it is looking much slower than GTC or RTR.

Yah limited seems to be setting up for some serious fun. Might even get pretty intense. I kinda feel like they are pushing these new gates on everyone though. Pretty odd if you ask me.

I almost exclusively play EDH so the guild champions are shaping up to be pretty cool (unlike a lot of the boring OP legends of the last few sets like the Praetors, Griselbrand and Avacyn). I'll probably build decks around 2-3 of them. Melek is my favorite currently spoiled and I'd be a bit more excited for Teysa if she cost less... 7 mana is really harsh.

Master of Cruelties can die in a fire along with whomever thought him up.

Fuse is an interesting twist on an old mechanic, although most of the abilities are overcosted when fused. I supposed utility trumps effeciency in some cases.

Ral Zarek is interesting... He doesn't protect himself, his ultimate is chaotic but not necessarily game ending. He does provide some ramp in non green decks though. I don't think he'll keep the $30+ price tag for very long but I'm sure he'll end up in every super friends deck to help guarantee other walkers ultimate.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]Master of Cruelties can die in a fire along with whomever thought him up.[/QUOTE]

I do wonder what the thought process behind this design is. It's not a competitive card at 5 mana and without evasion so for them it's a "safe" card as far as their supported tournament formats go. That makes it seem designed only to cut casual games (and commander games) short really fast which makes no sense at all. The sad part is that a lot of commander players will actually play this abomination.

[QUOTE=Seth]I do wonder what the thought process behind this design is. It's not a competitive card at 5 mana and without evasion so for them it's a "safe" card as far as their supported tournament formats go. That makes it seem designed only to cut casual games (and commander games) short really fast which makes no sense at all. The sad part is that a lot of commander players will actually play this abomination.[/QUOTE]

Yup... Kaalia players are bad enough. Giving them an instant kill card is just retarded. He also combos with Ninjutsu or hell, extort.

He interacts poorly with the higher life totals of the format, he's "weak" enough that he'll only take out one player before being hit by removal and likely ruin that players play experience as he sits and waits for the next hour to start a new game. He will warp the meta to force having resilient blockers by turn 3-4. He's far more degenerate than Magister/Sorin which most people despise but isn't quite broken enough to ban...

I sincerely hope he is banned in the M14 ban list update.

I don't think they will ban it in Commander. In order to ban it it needs to totally warp the game state from the moment it hits play. A come in play ability is far worse then an "when attacks" ability. It's a douche card but not ban worthy.

Well I like Master personally. He would make a fun card to use every once in a while if at all. You both bring up some good points about his play though. I wanted one for my Kaalia deck, but thinking about it again he would be a downer in the deck.. Kaalia always paints a giant target on your head when in play...

_Epsilon_, I am right there with ya. These new legends are looking like some prime Commander material. Should be interesting to see what decks come from these new legends. Not to get too far ahead, but Im hoppin that in the next block some seriously powerful cards are unleashed. Id like to see a planeswalker that is a better likelyness of Richard Garfield. I just think it would be kool lol.

wow....wizards must love Kaalia. I saw spoiler for Sire of Insanity, which is probably even more insane with Kaalia than Master is....

yah that is pretty deadly with kaalia..

I actually have been pondering some new ideas based around Exava. I think they are trying to push the whole unleash mechanic. She would obviously be a powerful engine for it.

[QUOTE=demonking28]yah that is pretty deadly with kaalia..

I actually have been pondering some new ideas based around Exava. I think they are trying to push the whole unleash mechanic. She would obviously be a powerful engine for it.[/QUOTE]

Exava seems pretty weak to me... Haste is not difficult to do in red and +1/+1 counters aren't super common in RB unless they're on vampires. Unleash creatures in general are pretty weak with only a few exceptions. Olivia or Rakdos 2.0 are just better generals for the same cost and support themes rather than just being goodstuff.dec. She might be a decent 1/99 but I don't see her being very interesting as a general.

Sire of Insanity is honestly really horrible in Kaalia IMO. Kaalia runs out of steam with no cards in hand and forcing a discard every turn would be suicide for her. Kaalia would be better suited holding mana up for stuff like Boros Charm or Ghostway in response to wraths than attempting to force everyone into topdeck mode and praying they don't draw into a wipe.

I do think he's a really cool card though because of his symmetry. He's not like Jin Gitaxias that gives you insane advantage while screwing everyone. This guy screws you too. You can totally build around it with stuff like Geth's Grimoire and Library of Leng but it still puts you in a vulnerable position rather than being all upside which is something a lot of cards have been missing lately.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]Exava seems pretty weak to me... Haste is not difficult to do in red and +1/+1 counters aren't super common in RB unless they're on vampires. Unleash creatures in general are pretty weak with only a few exceptions. Olivia or Rakdos 2.0 are just better generals for the same cost and support themes rather than just being goodstuff.dec. She might be a decent 1/99 but I don't see her being very interesting as a general.

Sire of Insanity is honestly really horrible in Kaalia IMO. Kaalia runs out of steam with no cards in hand and forcing a discard every turn would be suicide for her. Kaalia would be better suited holding mana up for stuff like Boros Charm or Ghostway in response to wraths than attempting to force everyone into topdeck mode and praying they don't draw into a wipe.

I do think he's a really cool card though because of his symmetry. He's not like Jin Gitaxias that gives you insane advantage while screwing everyone. This guy screws you too. You can totally build around it with stuff like Geth's Grimoire and Library of Leng but it still puts you in a vulnerable position rather than being all upside which is something a lot of cards have been missing lately.[/QUOTE]


Thing is, you have a 6/4 flying demon on the board, and at that point, everybody has to topdeck their answer, leaving you with time to beat away at their life total. IMO, the fact that he forces the game into a top decking contest (in which you start with a 6/4 Flier and a 2/2 flier) makes him well worth the slot. Also, some decks would rather have nobody with a hand than everybody (including themselves). Any wipe that you need to worry about must be top decked, and even then you are assured to be 1 card ahead of your opponent. This, and the fact that Kaalia often runs TONS of bombs (more bombs in her deck than wipes in the opposing), so you will most likely take a HUGE chunk of their life unless they can kill it right away.

Unless you got lucky on ramp, it's at least turn 5 at this point which is right around where generals and 5/x flyers start coming in more heavily. At 8 damage a turn, it's 5 turns per player unless you get lucky pulling another bomb. Meanwhile, they can play their general regardless of having no hand so that adds additional turns and you'll be primary target #1 with tapped creatures every turn and a bunch of generals coming your way. You're on a shorter clock than them UNLESS you have more threats to drop in to hit them harder than they can handle.

Lets say you have ~25-30 large angels/demons/dragons in your deck and the average EDH deck has ~10-15 answers. With three opponents, they're going to draw into removal before you draw into another threat and you will have already drawn their scorn. With no cards in hand to defend yourself, you're dead.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]Unless you got lucky on ramp, it's at least turn 5 at this point which is right around where generals and 5/x flyers start coming in more heavily. At 8 damage a turn, it's 5 turns per player unless you get lucky pulling another bomb. Meanwhile, they can play their general regardless of having no hand so that adds additional turns and you'll be primary target #1 with tapped creatures every turn and a bunch of generals coming your way. You're on a shorter clock than them UNLESS you have more threats to drop in to hit them harder than they can handle.

Lets say you have ~25-30 large angels/demons/dragons in your deck and the average EDH deck has ~10-15 answers. With three opponents, they're going to draw into removal before you draw into another threat and you will have already drawn their scorn. With no cards in hand to defend yourself, you're dead.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't run this card against multiple opponents. Not to mention discarding hands in multiplayer is just mean unless you win that turn. Also, unless the general flies and is an answer I don't see it as relevent. Most relevent flying generals cost more than 5 mana. and i personally dont mind them top decking lands instead of answers.

Well that escalated quickly lol. See I see it as a great fit for my Kaalia deck personally. I have based mine around reanimation since she eats kill spells so quickly. So for me, the idea of discarding my hand filling my grave with deadly creatures isn't bad. Helios made some good points. You would still have a beat stick ready to go while controlling everyone's hand.