Discussion Forum

looks nifty and fun

Stuff I would kick out (unless it serfs some greater purpose that I overlooked)

Angelheart Vial
Ratchet Bomb (= only good vs tokens, use Oblivion Stone)
Venser's Journal (use Reliquary Tower)

Palisade Giant (looks really weak)

Stolen Goods (doesn't do anything)
Worldpurge (why would you play this? Play Karn Liberated if you want to crazy reset)

I would also cut all mill effects like Mind Grind, You don't have a focussed mill strategy so free up the card slots and play more of something else (draw effects, graveyard reccurance, resets, anything that grands unfair card advantage like Twisted Justice, Overwhelming Intellect, Decree of Pain, Sensei's Divining Top...)

I'm not really seeing much of a theme to your deck. It appears to be some good stuff mixed with random junk thrown in because of colors. Thrull Parasite, Kingpin's Pet, Vizkopa Confessor and some of the other guys in there really aren't strong enough for EDH.

Who is the actual commander? Dromar? You could really have some fun with his ability or other color changing abilities. Alternatively you could make it a more bounce themed deck with things like warped devotion. Lavinia loves being bounced.

Cut all the mill cards unless you want to focus on mill. It's powerful but only when you have a full focus on it and are prepared to handle things like Eldrazi shuffles.

Indestructibility is just bad... Your own Austere Command naming enchantments and creatures would end up killing the "indestructible" creature. You'd be better off with darksteel plate if you need the effect but I'm not sure why you do.

Stolen Goods seems a bit mediocre unless you have some amount of control over the top of your opponent's library which this deck does not have.

Omniscience is just dumb. You either win immediately after casting it or get hated out of the game before your next draw. Unless you're playing in a heavy control/combo meta it's not worth the slot since your deck probably CAN'T win immediately and can't handle the hate. Your deck doesn't look very combo or control based currently.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]Omniscience is just dumb. You either win immediately after casting it or get hated out of the game before your next draw. Unless you're playing in a heavy control/combo meta it's not worth the slot since your deck probably CAN'T win immediately and can't handle the hate. Your deck doesn't look very combo or control based currently.[/QUOTE]

Omniscience in EDH is kinda fun from time to time if people don't overplay it :) it's a lot like Genesis Wave. It doesn't auto win the game but puts you ahead so far it's stupid. If used in a deck that can give everything haste then you should auto win just like you do when you run insane ganesis waves. If not you should be prepared to have someone sweep the board after you just ran through half your deck in one turn. Once everyone starts playing it every game then it's just a boring card that should be houseruled against.

I can't stand seeing the card played... I hate "one card win" spells as they are all boring. Might as well be playing a combo deck with tutors to set it up...

I just have the feeling that that's what It has come down to. Where you used to frown on someone playing Time Stretch or Sundering Titan now a ton of these problem cards exist and new ones are printed every set. The good days of relaxed casual gaming are over because it's hard to figur out where to draw the line.
People should probably play more counterspells but then again the guy playing the counterspell in a multiplayer game is mostly hurting himself in terms of cardadvantage. It's the issue of who commits first, kill cards/finishers remedy that. It's just a matter of which ones are accepted and which ones are over the top.
Every deck I see these days is over the top, at least in my group.

A few friends of mine broke from this group and started playing competitive 1vs1 (french ban list) Commander. They play heavy land destruct, and very fast aggresive EDH. I don't enjoy this type of EDH but I can't blame them or disagree with the issues they raise concerning what regular Commander has become. I haven't played much myself this year but of the games I did play I don't think I've actually enjoyed that many of them. I think I enjoy Cube and an occasional competitive legacy game more these days. Both are usually wel balanced. Cube is always fun but you need a lot of people and legacy gets frustrating when you're outmatched or boring when it's to easy.

[QUOTE=Seth]I just have the feeling that that's what It has come down to. Where you used to frown on someone playing Time Stretch or Sundering Titan now a ton of these problem cards exist and new ones are printed every set. The good days of relaxed casual gaming are over because it's hard to figur out where to draw the line.
People should probably play more counterspells but then again the guy playing the counterspell in a multiplayer game is mostly hurting himself in terms of cardadvantage. It's the issue of who commits first, kill cards/finishers remedy that. It's just a matter of which ones are accepted and which ones are over the top.
Every deck I see these days is over the top, at least in my group.

A few friends of mine broke from this group and started playing competitive 1vs1 (french ban list) Commander. They play heavy land destruct, and very fast aggresive EDH. I don't enjoy this type of EDH but I can't blame them or disagree with the issues they raise concerning what regular Commander has become. I haven't played much myself this year but of the games I did play I don't think I've actually enjoyed that many of them. I think I enjoy Cube and an occasional competitive legacy game more these days. Both are usually wel balanced. Cube is always fun but you need a lot of people and legacy gets frustrating when you're outmatched or boring when it's to easy.[/QUOTE]

There's still a big difference between the newer bombs like the primordials and things like Omniscience, G-wave, Insurrection, Time Stretch, etc... I really don't think the line is that blurred. 1-2 card "combos" that you're almost guaranteed to win if they resolve is not fun for most people you're going to be playing with. There are certainly groups that enjoy it but it's not the norm. The cards may seem fun but that lasts exactly once and since all of the really dumb cards are well over a year old by now, we've all seen it be cool that one time.

I primarily play at a LGS anymore and there's a few people that really just don't "get" the format but even among those few, only one still plays Omniscience (in EVERY deck he has that's blue...) and someone always bitches about it when he does play it. Somehow it's still in his decks and he will still play it followed by a bunch of draw, extra turns, and counterspells. He usually still loses anyway though. Good stuff does not make a good player. That probably makes it even more frustrating since he's doing it so poorly.

My experience is that games either drag on for ever or someone plays Insurrection (or simular) and it's next game. And that's actually a lot better then one guy dying and the rest playing that same game for another hour or two.

The kind of game I enjoy most is me playing with my Progenitus 5 color control deck where I really have to play on the defensive and just take it easy, sculpt my hand, make no mistakes and outlast the rest of the table by playing it well and using my well build very allround deck. It's been a long time since I had a chance to enjoy this because sooner or later someone always destroys my hand and all my careful planning. Usually by playing some kind of wheel effect. That for me is worse then any one shot combo where at least then you can play another game.

I tend to kill everyone all at once or at least within a few turns of eachother. I hate the games that someone gets killed off an hour before the end of the game. Most games don't usually end up going much over an hour either though... unless we're playing planeschase as well. That just gets obnoxious.

Hey guys, thanks for all the input. Although I haven't been able to get some of the cards you suggested (A bit expensive). I have got rid of the mill cards and made some new editions. Yes, Dromar is the general. Here is the new deck:

http://www.mtgvault.com/xeravik/decks/dirty-snowball/

I've won 3 of 3 EDH matches now, and it was against a wide variety of decks. The guys im playing with are way more experienced than me too, so its very nice to have some power in my hands =P.

I do agree that Omni is a super strong card, ive played it 2 of my 3 games and have been able to take complete board control to the point of my opponents scooping.

I'm able to steal others cards quite frequently, and I actually twincasted a Praetor's Council and that won me a game pretty handily =P.

I have plenty of board wipe when a situation gets sticky and I'm able to pull stuff back from the graveyard quite frequently. My cheap clone creatures also allow me to remain a threat even if I dont have good board position early, because I can copy 'X' creature for 3 or 4 mana rather than paying 6+.

[QUOTE=Xeravik]My cheap clone creatures also allow me to remain a threat even if I dont have good board position early, because I can copy 'X' creature for 3 or 4 mana rather than paying 6+.[/QUOTE]

This is only relevant when you can use the remaining mana as well. The ideal is to use all of your mana every turn, never have unused mana and this while increasing your mana total every round. If you manage to build a deck that can do that you've got a strong/solid shell to work from.

Casting a 4 mana clone if you have 6 mana in total and not using the remaining 2 mana is an inefficient use of your mana, which means your deck isn't performing well. But if for instance your opponent uses his 6 mana to play a nice fat Soul of the Harvest and you use your 6 mana to play a Phantasmal Image to copy his Soul of the Harvest and use the excess 4 mana to play Concentrate and draw yourself 3 new cards you're clearly using you're mana well and making sure you can keep doing so without running short on cards.

[QUOTE=Seth]This is only relevant when you can use the remaining mana as well. The ideal is to use all of your mana every turn, never have unused mana and this while increasing your mana total every round. If you manage to build a deck that can do that you've got a strong/solid shell to work from.

Casting a 4 mana clone if you have 6 mana in total and not using the remaining 2 mana is an inefficient use of your mana, which means your deck isn't performing well. But if for instance your opponent uses his 6 mana to play a nice fat Soul of the Harvest and you use your 6 mana to play a Phantasmal Image to copy his Soul of the Harvest and use the excess 4 mana to play Concentrate and draw yourself 3 new cards you're clearly using you're mana well and making sure you can keep doing so without running short on cards.[/QUOTE]

I would say that depends on what type of deck you're playing. A lot of decks want to keep mana open for responses and don't really care about curving out or tempo plays. Certainly if you're playing a non-interactive, sorcery speed deck efficiency matters a lot more.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]I would say that depends on what type of deck you're playing. A lot of decks want to keep mana open for responses and don't really care about curving out or tempo plays. Certainly if you're playing a non-interactive, sorcery speed deck efficiency matters a lot more.[/QUOTE]

Mana use has nothing to do with archetype (like tempo play). Keeping mana open is fine but ideally if you end up not using that mana for response (counterspell or what have you) you want to be able to sink that mana into something before the end of your last opponents turn. That is far more efficient then loosing that mana. There are theories that compare unused mana to letting your opponent time walk. This theory is aimed at tournament players but it's relevant to any format and has to do with deck building and thinking about optimal use of your resources while playing. In legacy tournament play you quickly feel the impact of poorly using resources, in EDH the impact is less obvious because the game is slow and more forgiving but it's there.

Magic is about slowly gaining an advantage over your opponents until the point where that advantage is so large that you win. This advantage can be gained by combining card advantage, board position, mana/resource use etc...

When a vastly superior deck piloted by a skilled player is pitched against weak opponents playing bad decks all this theory doesn't matter but when games are really tight and you have to really work to get the upper hand these things become important.


after looking really hard for the article I read a long time ago about mana use (apparently it's called stock mana) I found it here

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8738

I didn't reread it as I don't have the time right now but from what I remember it was a great article written by a guy who really knows his stuff (Sacher).

[QUOTE=Seth]Mana use has nothing to do with archetype (like tempo play). Keeping mana open is fine but ideally if you end up not using that mana for response (counterspell or what have you) you want to be able to sink that mana into something before the end of your last opponents turn. That is far more efficient then loosing that mana. There are theories that compare unused mana to letting your opponent time walk. This theory is aimed at tournament players but it's relevant to any format and has to do with deck building and thinking about optimal use of your resources while playing. In legacy tournament play you quickly feel the impact of poorly using resources, in EDH the impact is less obvious because the game is slow and more forgiving but it's there.

Magic is about slowly gaining an advantage over your opponents until the point where that advantage is so large that you win. This advantage can be gained by combining card advantage, board position, mana/resource use etc...

When a vastly superior deck piloted by a skilled player is pitched against weak opponents playing bad decks all this theory doesn't matter but when games are really tight and you have to really work to get the upper hand these things become important.


after looking really hard for the article I read a long time ago about mana use (apparently it's called stock mana) I found it here

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8738

I didn't reread it as I don't have the time right now but from what I remember it was a great article written by a guy who really knows his stuff (Sacher).[/QUOTE]

The thing is that the effect is so heavily reduced because of multiplayer, singleton AND higher life totals that it can largely be ignored. Yes, you still want to be able to use your mana if possible but wasting a few mana for a turn or two isn't even close to a time walk like it would be in a 1v1 event.

The most efficient player will also have the largest target on their head in a balanced match and the politics of it all really shifts the dynamics of the game.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]The thing is that the effect is so heavily reduced because of multiplayer, singleton AND higher life totals that it can largely be ignored. Yes, you still want to be able to use your mana if possible but wasting a few mana for a turn or two isn't even close to a time walk like it would be in a 1v1 event.

The most efficient player will also have the largest target on their head in a balanced match and the politics of it all really shifts the dynamics of the game.[/QUOTE]

Yes of course, I agree that the complexity of multiplayer and the politics involved have a larger impact on who wins then individual deck strength. Still it's a good feeling when your deck runs smooth (and even better when it runs smooth without drawing attention :)