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That's more like altered art than proxies.

I really think the intent is important when it comes to proxies... If someone is just building a deck outside their means then I will take issue with it. If they're testing a build or using it as a placeholder when they have the actual card but it's in another deck or too expensive to actually want to play, I'm ok with it.

[QUOTE=_Epsilon_]That's more like altered art than proxies.

I really think the intent is important when it comes to proxies... If someone is just building a deck outside their means then I will take issue with it. If they're testing a build or using it as a placeholder when they have the actual card but it's in another deck or too expensive to actually want to play, I'm ok with it.[/QUOTE]

That makes a lot of sense. i've seen so many people who are like "no, i don't play with anyone with proxies for any reason ever at all for any reason."

The dislike against proxies comes from the illusion that the balance of the game is somewhat regulated by the cost of cards. So people who don't own every card out there and play budget decks tend to dislike people playing proxies because they feel like its unfair.

Once you get to a point where you own most cards and you start playing high level competitive magic you break through that illusion. I personally don't care that people run proxies and I run proxies myself in most test decks even though I own all the cards I proxy. The only time I don't use proxies is when I go play a tournament or an FNM. This means pulling cards out of my many Commander decks and putting proxies in those decks. Proxies I usually don't swap back out just because they are proxies. No body I know cares. The only thing that matters is how well you play, how good you are at reading your opponent and the gamestate and how good you are at deck building and sideboard building. If I defeat my opponent I want it to be because I played well and not because he was playing crap because he can't afford better cards.
I know lots of guys that are way better then I am at both playing and deck building, what do I care that they use proxies or not, they beat me because they are smarter and that's as fair as it gets. Once you understand that you won't care either. Over the years I've never met any good experienced player who took offense to someone running proxies, they don't even mention it. The people that do mention it when someone is running a few proxies are always the inexperienced lesser players, always. Those are the ones that don't get it yet, they think the game is won by people with lots of money and not so much by superior players.
Here in Belgium every legacy tournament I went to over the past few years was won by the same dozen or so players, it's always the same guys in T8, every single time. Why, because they are great players.

This is a highly complex startegic game, stick to the rules and play, that's all that matters.

Now I play commander with guys who pimp every card they can still pimp. They run Beta/Alpha Duals, all foil Commander decks, alternative art when it exists, judge foils, etc... They don't pimp to show off they pimp because they are collectors with a love for the game and they already collected everything, now they just look for more. It's just for them, they don't care what other players run, it's not about that.

Another thing I've noticed over the years is when people do proxy over their budget and experience level it shows. They usually are running expensive cards because they are expensive and not because they fit their deck well. Basically they just don't know how to use these cards and screw up anyway. So even in this case it doesn't matter.

[QUOTE=Seth]Another thing I've noticed over the years is when people do proxy over their budget and experience level it shows. They usually are running expensive cards because they are expensive and not because they fit their deck well. Basically they just don't know how to use these cards and screw up anyway.[/QUOTE]

I think you summed up my disdain for proxies pretty well with this last paragraph... My main issues are with net decking and stupidity. Proxies tend to bring out both in people.

I really don't care if you're just trying out a new build, practicing vs the metagame or just don't want to swap out a card from another deck. I do care if you're just copying something that won at FNM instead of trying to come to a similar conclusion by your own means. If you don't know WHY and HOW it won, you're not going to win with it and you'd have better luck just creating something yourself that you know how to play.

There's a guy at my work that is just getting into magic and trying to learn the game so we play a lot of 1 on 1's of EDH at work. He's sinking 100's of dollars into cards without really learning why or even IF they're good. My win rate is probably over 95% against him. I can hand him one of my decks that I just used to beat him and use his and I'll still win. He just doesn't really know what he's doing or how to take advantage of the deep synergies built into my decks. (or even those in his own decks) If he were to start proxying decks, I might take issue solely because he hasn't taken the time to learn how to use the cards properly and it really wouldn't help him learn.

Another guy that shows up at the LGS frequently proxies a bunch of the more expensive cards and tends to just play good stuff decks that he probably copied online. That JTMS is nice and all but he's pretty lackluster in EDH. The pure power in his decks, he should do a lot better than he does but that's what you get when you don't really build in synergies and instead just play good stuff.

I honestly don't care about the $$ value of a deck. It usually means nothing like you said. If anything, I'll take it as a challenge to prove a point like I did building the sub $50 Hakim deck to destroy the $5000 Zur netdeck one of the guys brought in... Enchantment based voltron control you say? Let me do it better with the jankiest general and at 1/100th the cost.

yeah that sounds about right


Telling new people how to go about it is tricky, I remember being there and overspending. The good advise used to be to avoid high cost standard cards until they rotate when just playing commander. That is still sound advice I think but things changed ever since Modern and the printing of the first Commander decks. Now a lot of cards are expensive that didn't used to be.

I think as long as they use what they buy it's ok, let them buy it and try it. If you're like I used to be and just buy everything you see and then never use it that might not be the cheapest way to go about it :) In the end I'm glad I did because all these cards I bought used to be pretty cheap and they are now expensive but these days it's just not possible anymore to spend like that.

That said I am a good card deck kind of player but a good card for me does not mean an expensive card. I've been playing for long enough to recognize the difference. A good card for instance is Sakura-Tribe Elder or Sepulchral Primordial or Rampaging Baloths. For me that's power. Or when you look at Theros Prophet of Kruphix is insane in my opinion, not very expensive but totally busted in multiplayer.
And then there are totally insane busted old cards that somehow still go unnoticed my the masses like Cauldron Dance. If commander players see me play it they want it but most people have never seen the card before.

I use proxies like crazy. I use them as placeholders/timesavers though. I have a ton of decks, and a lot of them share the same card(s). So, instead of owning 56 copies of Nevinyrral's Disk or Scrubland, I own maybe 4, 5, or 6 at most, then use proxies for the rest. Every deck of mine has genuine versions of every card somewhere in my possession, but to save everyone a ton of time proxies have been a lifesaver =]

Also I'm a bit on the fence with modified art (such as the one you posted). Sometimes it looks awful and just ruins the card, but sometimes it looks GREAT (case and point above). You gotta be sure it's worth possibly defacing a card really...