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I like building decks based on what I call Core Deck design. I take a core set of cards that work well together and then tack on 2 or 3 cards that typically make a killer combo. Show and Tell Core 4 Show and Tell 4 Force of Will 4 Mental Misstep 4 Daze 4 Torpor Orb 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought Deck 4 Artificer's Intuition 4 Standstill 4 Lotus Petal 4 Ancient Tomb 14 Island The core deck has 54 cards that leaves you with 6 more cards to add. I added 2 Lightning Greaves + 2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn + 2 Crystal Vein What cards would you add? Some Possibilities 1. Blightsteel Colossus + Lighning Gleaves 2. Painter's Servant + Grindstone 3. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn + Lightning Gleaves 4. Pestermite + Splinter Twin 5. Iona, Shield of Emeria + Painter's Servant 6. Hive Mind + Pact of Negation Can you suggest anything better?
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I really love doing this kind of thing. I had about twenty(now deleted) decks designed with this intention, and I can safely say they had been some of the most enjoyable to make.
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Glad you like this kind of thing WhiteAndBlueTheyKillYou, By this kind are thing are you referring to Show and Tell decks , Phyrexian Dreadnaught decks, or combo decks in general? Because after looking at your decks I noticed that you are alot like me always experimenting with killer combo decks. Have you been increasingly finding you are thinking more about the problem of Surgical Extraction than cards like Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Mind Break Trap, and Pact of Negation? Because if you have I'd sure like to hear what you've come up with against extraction. Inquisition of Kozilek + Surgical Extraction is a pain to work around.
Combo in general. And I find myself seeing Surgical Extraction very rarely, but when I do always in the hand of an Extractor... There's no easy plan around it except diversifying, which is easier said than done in a lot of decks. The decks I've found myself doing the best against extraction are Lands and Reanimator. Reanimator they'll ALWAYS go for Entomb first, so it's easy enough to play around, and Lands is all about protecting Loam. If you play smart with either of those decks you have a chance, but some decks are just terrible at dealing with Extraction(read: anything based on Storm)
In reality you should never devote any part of your SB to fighting Extraction. SBing against Extraction is like an oxymoron...If the person is an Extractor, and knows what they're doing, you are going to lose, easy as that...If they're just playing the deck type, but don't know what they're doing, then you'll win anyway. The thing to remember is Extractors are a rare breed (I think a lot of you are happy to hear that). There are a number of Legacy players who have never even played against an Extractor. If you meet one, have fun with it, we're nice people =P
I can't yet call myself an extractor, but yesterday I enjoyed some fun with poxtraction XD I agree that it's not worth it to sideboard against extraction, for the same reasons you state. I meant in the main sixty, which you have to admit Lands is STILL obnoxious for you. Extirpate>Surgical Extraction. I can at least do funny tricks to avoid SE, but Extirpate not so much.
Honestly, Lands is no longer a threat to me. It's a little bit annoying to use my Iso-Seek designs against them, but my PAL designs, especially my new WBUG one, trash them. I honestly love my WBUG design, and I think it's going to be the new frame for PAL, so be ready for that =P
I will one day be able to call myself an extractor ^_^ Baby steps for now, though, I'll work on milltraction in the mean time. Which isn't really extraction so much as it is mill with a brutally quick finish and unique method of control while waiting for it to fall into place.
Um, sadly, with the Orb, I don't think you get an extra turn with Emrakul. thou the Orb with the Dreadnought is great.
You do get an extra turn, the difference is the phrasing "When You Cast Emrakul", not "When Emrakul Comes into Play" Torpor orb only cancels abilities of creatures coming into play or entering the battlefield.
Hi IamAlphaGeek, Even more sadly, even without the orb, Emrakul won't give an extra turn when brought into play by Show and Tell. Because that ability only happens when Emrakul is cast. "When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one." And yes, Torpor Orb is better than Stifle in this type of deck because it prevents creatures like Gatekeeper of Malakir, Acidic Slime, etc.... from activating when brought into play by Show and Tell. And also you're more likely to have Torpor Orb in play (possibly due to Artificer's Intuition) than have a Stifle (deck doesn't have a search card for instant and sorceries) and open blue mana after playing Show and Tell.
I'm sorry I'm a little lost. Torpor Orb has a CMC of 2, how does Artificer's intuition search for it?
Hi LurkerDark, Of course your right Artificer's intuition isn't able to search for Torpor Orb. The Artificer's Intuition is to search for the Phyrexian Dreadnaught, Mana Vault, or possible Lightning Greaves. The Artificer's Intuition just increases the chances of helping complete the combo by finding the Phyrexian Dreadnought not the Torpor Orb. Thanks for asking for clarification of my comment, my statement was misleading.
Have you thought of adding a few Trinket Mage, a 2/2 that you could use as a search engine for Phyrexian Dreadnought, I see you already have Artificer's Intuition. Also, Trickbind is a great card to cancel the abilities of the Dreadnought (and being placed on top of the stack) or use a Squelch to counter the ability and being able to draw a card. Plus, countering I find Spell Snare is great for countering those (2 costing spells) or a Pact of Negation as insurance. Plus, what about adding Misty Rainforest or Scalding Tarn to cycle through your deck better chance of getting the cards you want (even by a few) or even adding Gitaxian Probe for more cycling abilities by looking at the players hand and drawing a card (for a small cost of 2 life). Torpor Orb is a great card for him but could be opened up as a large target due to the idea of countering acting abilities for your stuff and there's like Gatekeeper of Malakir, Acidic Slime, etc.... But, they are some small ideas the deck it's self looks great. Plus with (ability removers) you could toss in Cunning Wish (even sideboard) and bring one from outside the game incase of Surgical Extraction or another search and removal spells.
Yes, I had thought about Trinket Mage but it's three converted mana just didn't feel good I'm not even happy with artificer's intuition 2 mana. Instead I played around with the idea of adding more white mana sources (there already are 4 lotus petals) for Enlightened tutor to back (Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Vampiric are banned in Legacy). Still, the Trinket Mage could work with Show and Tell to fetch the Phyrexian Dreadnought as long as I don't also put Torpor Orb into play with Show and Tell. Actually, what I really took a long look at was adding either Dizzy Spell, Muddle the Mixture, and Drift of Phantasms as possble fetch spells using their transmute abilities. In fact, Drift of Phastasms, is a pretty darn good replacement for Artificer's Intuition if you want to emphasis the Show and Tell combo over the Phyrexian Dreadnought + Torpor Orb comb. And Muddle the Mixture isn't to bad a replacement for Lightning Gleaves if you really want to up the counterspell available in the deck. I did play around with fetch lands and even adding the land Boseiju, Who Shelters All. But I found I didn't like all the pain these lands handed out. Against good burn or aggro decks you really have to have gone off by turn 5 or you're more than likely dead. With all the fetch lands and Gitaxian Probe your suggesting that clock becomes more you only have 4 turns to go off and that just is to little time for this deck I feel. And realy I don't think you need to add the fetch lands and the Gitaxian Probe because of the power of Standstill in this deck. Standstill is just such an amazing card in this deck. It can help provide the time you need to find the combo you want if the opponent doesn't cast to break the enchantment. Or it can help you gain the cards you need if the opponent does break the enchantment; which is most like what the opponent will do. Bringing in Standstill with Emrakul using Show and Tell is more than likely game over. Because Standstill is so good I have even played around with adding Force Field and Spellbook to this deck. Try it you might like it. Taking out Lightening Gleaves and Mana Vault for 2 Force Field and 2 Spell Book might be one way to go. Thanks for your suggestions. Even if I really didn't take any. I appreciate the chance to explain why I made the choices I did for this deck. Hopefully, you'll agree with my reseasoning and learn from it.
Oh yeah also a combo I used with Phyrexian Dreadnought is Volrath's Shapeshifter, it's three mana but becomes a 12/12 Trampling Shapeshifter and I think one of my favorite combos I used a lot was Academy Researchers and Eldrazi Conscription.
Very well put, the deck seems to work very well with one another only thing I see that could hurt is luck. Two Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and four Show and Tells, plus depending on the card they are playing could end up being a favor in there case. Now something like Tinkers (depending on standard playing) and Blightsteel Colossus, percentage would be more in your favor. Also with the idea of Show and Tell have you thought about Boomerang or Unsummon to bounce back whatever is played?
Hi ClockworkCopper, Yes, I did investigate boomerang like cards. In the first version of the deck I put in 4 Into the Roil instead of Torpor Orb and had no mana vaults and only had 2 Standstill and put in 4 Stifles. The deck didn't play as well because the Phyrexian Dreadnaught combo didn't hit as fequently because the Standstill draw didn't happen as frequently. Also the Stifle tends to be held in hand until you get a Dreadnaught and at least one Counterspell in hand. Whereas, you can pretty much drop a Torpor Orb any time and rarely does it draw a counter or any removal in the first game because the opponent doesn't know its importance in the deck. Also I found I rarely had the extra mana for kicking Into the Roil after playing Show and Tell and while it was of some some use to tell you the truth Into the Roil was most often used as Force of Will fodder; not really the threat level you want for any of your cards in a blue deck. Boomrang's bounce anything ability makes it technically a better card than either Into the Roil or Unsummon. But I have a personal preferance to choosing 1U over UU in a non-pure Island deck. Yes, I really prefer Mana Leak over Counterspell in a non-pure Island deck. Still, even in a pure island contol deck I'd probably go with 4 Force of Will, 4 Mental Misstep, 4 Daze, and 4 Spell Pierce (I prefer it over Spell Snag). It very weird to say but Counterspell is no longer the power card it was in Blue decks. That's almost as strange as saying Dark Ritual is no longer a power card in Black decks (which is most certainly is not the case yet) Tinkers obviously would be in this deck if wasn't that I'm trying to keep this deck Legacy legal. Feel free to put in Blightsteel Colossus instead of Emrakul if you're playing with Tinker's it just makes good sense. The only reason I'm playing Emrakul is because I'm really trying make new innovative type of Show and Tell deck without resorting to Hive Mind and Pact of Negation. And the whole thought of bringing into play Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with Lightning rleaves and a Standstill just makes me want to breakout in a long loud bout of evil laughter. I even briefly considered putting in 4 Decree of Silence instead 4 Standstill and 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All instead of 2 Mana Vault. And I still might do it if this deck is used in a group game. Just imagine casting Show and Tell and bringing into play Emrakul, The Aeons Torn with Lightning Greaves, Decree of Silence, and Boseiju, Who Shelters All Buuwaah, Ha, Ha, Ha, Haaaaaa!!!!!!! Yea, I know Hive Mind and Pact of Negation woul kill all my opponents faster but just the thought of all the pain and suffering Emrakul could inflict in a group game with the above combo is just makes me breakout in a evil grin ;-))
Stifle + Phyrexian Dreadnought = win? :b
Hi MaxvJad, Hmm, your comment is too short for me to fully understand what you're trying to say. 1. Are you asking does Stifle + Dreadnought equal a win? Well obviously no. It just makes a 12/12 creature for just 1U mana which is nice but it is very vulnerable thus the Lightning Greaves in the deck to give it shroud and haste. 2. Perhaps you are suggesting adding Stifle to the deck instead of Torpor Orb? Well, but I put in Torpor Orb instead Stifle for several reasons. The explaination for why Torpor Orb is being used instead of Stifle can be found in some of my previous reply posts for this deck. Read them and then tell me if my reasoning is wrong. 3. Lastly, perhaps you are suggesting adding Stifle to add redundancy to the Torpor Orb. That is an interesting idea, but just what exactly would you suggest I take out to substitute Stifle instead without seriously weaking the deck? Yes, Stifle + Phyrexian Dreadnought is a nice combo so is Trickbind + Phyrexian Dreadnought. In fact, there is a very nice deck type called Stiflenought which when I first learn of these combos I quickly made my own version which I called. Tricky Phyrexian Dreadnought http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=145921 While Stiflenought decks very greatly resemble this Torpornought deck. This deck has a couple new tricks up its sleave due to Show and Tell and perhaps is even superior to my Tricky Phyrexian Dreadnought deck. So thanks for the comment. And please feel free to make your comments longer so I can more clearly understand what you are trying to convey.
I love how all of your responses are of such a length, and try to take everything into consideration, in almost any applicable way. I think if I keep seeing the rise in a deck called Stoneblade I might run a Dreadnought based tempo deck featuring the orb and stifle, as the deck in question is mostly based off of abilities. Also, I think Bob(Dark Confidant) could be a very powerful card in such decks.
This is pretty sweet! I've been working on a Torpor Elemental deck focusing around the "evoke" ability of some older elementals, though I haven't quite been able to bring it together yet. I hadn't thought of Phyrexian Dreadnought! Honestly, just a card I rarely see so I just forget about it. Also, agree with everything WhiteAndBlue said in the above post, especially the time taken for long detailed responses :) I used to go to great lengths to leave detailed comments like that too.
Hi SavageTheCabbage, Glad you like the deck. Post a link to your Torpor Elemental deck so I and others can look and comment on it.
Is mana vault not restricted?
Hi Thorai, Well I'll be darned, your right mana vault is banned in Legacy. Wonder why I thought it legal. Confusion with Grim Monolith perhaps in my mind. Have taken out Mana Vault and put in Cyrstal Vein instead. Thanks for the catch.
I don't know about having Torpor Orb and Emrakul... that kind of kills itself, don't ya think?
Hi JaceTheMindsculptor, No I don't think that at all. All Torpor Orb does is prevent entering battlefield abilities from triggering. Read the the text of Torpor Orb carefully: "Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger." It doesn't say Creatures entering the battlefield lose all abilities. Only entering battlefield abilities are lost. Emrakul doesn't have any entering the battefield abilities. Thus the following Emrakul abilities are uneffected by Torpor Orb and Show and Tell. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered. Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6 When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library. So Emrakul still kick ass after Show and Tell puts it and possibly Torpor orb into play. Though hopefully Torpor orb is already in play and Lightning Grease is put into play instead. A Lightning Greaved equipted Emrakul is just evil. Bwaa, ha, ha, ha haaaa!!!! As I stated before the only Emrakul ability affected is "When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one." This ability is not activated by Show and Tell because Emrakul is not cast by Show and Tell it is "put into play" And as thenameisdeath said early Emrukul will get the extra turn if it is hard cast from hand even with Torpor Orb in play. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Legendary Creature - Eldrazi 15/15, 15 (15) Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered. When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one. Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6 When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
how fast can u suggest that combo starts stringing together? mind you i did just skip thru all previous text so if that question was already answered i apologize :D
Hi Verbal Ilusion, It really depends on the type of combo deck you are building and the play format you playing in. For example, There are Turn 0 combo decks. (You win before you even take your first turn) These tend to casual format (anything goes) most often relying on the use of the card Flash. Here's an example Turn 0 Win (60 cards) by unknownhunter763 Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=21087 There also many Vintage Decks that are capable of turn 1 wins due to great mana acceleration available through the use of Moxes, Black Lotus, and Tolarian Academy. To tell you the truth if a Vintage deck isn't able to least attempt to stop a possible turn 1 win I really feel its a poorly designed vintage deck. I even wrote a big long article about why I believe good decks should protect against turn 1 wins Using Game Theory Concepts for designing a MTG deck by Planestalker http://forums.mtgvault.com/showthread.php?t=3142 For me and probably many other Legacy players the general rule of thumb for a legacy combo deck should be able to go off consistantly by turn 3 if it is to be considered fairly good. But the really top tier combo decks in Legacy are not only capable of going off turn 1 or turn 2 they also have the ability protect themselves from disruption. Typically they protect against disruption either by doing something like Duress on turn 1 or have a set of zero casting cost counter spells in hand the most commonly used being Force of Will, Pact of Negation, and Mental Misstep and possibly Daze. Currently I feel the best Legacy Combo deck is TES, here is an example: TES: The Epic Storm (75 cards) by raggedjoe Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=190527 But the above rule of thumb is sort of meaningless as I'm sure there are some perfectly good legacy control/combo decks that may not really be able to off until past turn five or more. One of the best combo decks I've ever seen relies on verbal manipulation of the opponent. Its not tourney legal, but it sure is one of the best combo's I've ever seen. chiral chaos (100% guaranteed turn 1 win) (40 cards) by dknight27 Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=32755
I would consider adding Eater of days just to add more possibilities and also a early flyer if you're stuck without Emrakul. Though, of course, if someone is mean enough to destroy your orb as you cast him, it could cost you the game.
Hi Cremesinus, Yeah, Eater of Days is an interesting idea. Feel free to add two and take out hmm.... maybe 2 daze. But I don't think I will because I really like having alot of counterspells to protect the casting of Show and Tell or to disrupt the opponent's actions.
I suggest you consider the inclusion of quicksilver amulet. http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewCard_Popup.aspxCardName=Quicksilver%20Amulet&Edition=M12&Print=1 so that you can cast emrakul earlier.
Hi byckg, Hmmm, interesting idea use Show and Tell to put into play Quicksilver amulet and then use Quicksliver amulet to put Emrakul when it is drawn. I guess you could add two Quicksilver and take out hmm.... maybe 2 daze. But I don't think I will because I really like having alot of counterspells to protect the casting of Show and Tell or to disrupt the opponent's actions. You also might like the even better the idea of adding Braids, Conjurer Adept instead of Quicksilver Amulet. I played around with the idea of adding Braids, Conjurer Adept and Blightsteel Colossus to this deck. (It is still a pretty good idea) Braids, Braids, Conjurer Adept At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player may put an artifact, creature, or land card from his or her hand into play. Try it and see if you like it. Thanks for for the suggestion.
thanks planestalker the links really helped i look forward to more posts on this deck very interesting stuff