Bellz76

For starters, I think you should be running at least 22 land. 18 won't be enough if you want to be able to cast the Silerbacks and Packleaders consistantly- even with 4 elves. And that means you'll only have 4 cards to trigger the Ferocious on your Heir, Savage Punch, and Roar of Challenge.

Also, you are running Harden Scales but no cards that have counters or that give counters. There are a bunch of decent cards that give counters from the sets you're looking at- Dragonscale Boon, Incremental Growth, Hunt the Weak, Living Totem, and Genesis Hydra to name a few. And if you want to focus on counters, Tuskguard Captain gives all your creatures with counters trample.

Additionally, if you like the Packleader, you should try to find more cards with 3+ power to run so you can keep drawing those cards. M15 has cards like Centaur Courser, Invasive Species, Roaring Primadox, or Soul of Zendikar. KTK has Hooting Mandrills, Longshot Squad, Sultai Flayer, Temur Charger, and Wooly Loxodon to name a few. And there are some pretty neat little combos that you can pull off with these cards- Invasive Species makes you return a permanent- so bounce a card like Centuar Courser to replay and draw an additional card. Roaring Primadox does the same thing, just every turn. Returning Living Totem or Genesis Hydra let's you get their Enter the Battlefield abilities again AND get another card draw trigger from the Packleader (Hydra only there). Soul of Zendikar let's you put a 3\3 into play as an activated ability. Another good interaction would be Feral Incarnation- sure it costs 9, but it does convoke, but with the Packleader out, it could read put 3 3\3 green beasts into play and draw 3 cards for 8G. With a few other creatures out and you bring the casting cost way down. It's also fun to Hunt the Weak with your Hornets Nest. Fight their biggest creature, lose your nest, but gain X flying deathtouch creatures.

Just a few things to try. Hope this helps!

This deck needs some more land... at least 22. And I think this build may be better than the token build. It has more early drops and lots of instants to protect the BT....

Hmm.... running into some issues... just taking a few practice draws. We have no way to protect the BT and we don't have enough early drops besides Raise the Alarm to make the HoN useful. In order to get a substancial number of creatures, we HAVE to do RtA into Trip Spirits and then have the BT and Launch... grumble, we need more early guys.

I'm liking the way this is shaping up. Hopefully it will work the way we want it to. Re: God Favored General- there are items like the SpringLeaf Drum that let you tap a creature to produce mana... or in this deck, he could be tapped to convoke the Angel, Devouring Light, or the Spirit... or tapped with the Glimpse would be a creative way as well.

I tried a u\b shell, but it's tricky. It becomes more of a control deck and a slow grind. I did run the Dictate, Draka Mystic, some removal, and some counter magic. The trouble was a lack of a board sweeper, and it wasn't enough pressure to offset the extra cards I was giving them. Still fun, but I like the red version better.

Yeah, I like the counter increasing cards- and that it's not just the Skulker they work for. One Solidarity or Heros on a 4\4 Skulker is the same as drawing 3 cards- you can't draw 3 cards with 2 mana. And if you don't have a Skulker, you can use them on the Syren or the Scourge- that's good utility. However, if you don't have any creatures, you can't play FF... and unless you have a way to kill the creature it's on, you can't get the 2nd card. True, Divination is an extra mana, but it is 2 cards every time. The Dictate is ok, but you are giving your opponent cards, and unless your deck is designed to handle that, is never a good thing. I agree, if you want to focus on the Skulkers, Dictate with Harden Scales could be insane.

I think my biggest worry with the Scourge is that you can't eat and attack in the same turn. However, there are a few options that I hadn't considered since we are pairing green with blue (my initial idea was w\ red and Act of Treason). You already have one way with the Tactics, but you could run Kiroa's Follower as a mana dork, but could also untap a Scourge during combat to eat something after blockers have been declared... Or, you could even run the Profit of Kruphix- yes, it's rare and might cost you a dollor or two, it would let you attack, untap end of Turn, and then eat something on your opponents end step so he untaps again on yours. Also good for flashing in creatures to boot.

I don't think the Siren is too much. She seems to fit the deck pretty well. A heroic flyer is solid in any deck with Harden Scales and Solidarity of Heroes. If the Grovedancer gives her a counter and then you Solidarity her she does from a 1\3 to a 5\7 flyer. She'll now block Stormbreath and Sarkin all day, and will eat Wingmate Rocs and Butchers. Even if you only cast Solidarity on her she still gets 2 counters- 3\5 blocks all of the above like the Prognostic Sphnix (dealing with all but the butcher). So I like her in the deck. This might also be a good spot for the Ordeal of Thassa, since it helps the heroic, gains the benefit of the counters, and then draws you cards. I think I'd drop the presence to 2x and then play 4x Ordeal instead of Fate Foretold.... and then maybe swap the Embodiment of Spring for Kiara's Followers.... at least as the build is now without making any huge changes.

This is an interesting concept. I think you need some card drawing in here. Divination, Treasure Cruise, or Jace's Ingenuity- with the Ingenuity acting as a combat trick when the Skulker attacks. Also, it will help you get to more of your action cards, and second it makes the Skulker bigger. I also think there could be some really neat interactions with Life's Legacy. It's another sac outlet if you want to generate squid tokens, and it draws you more cards. You could also run the Horizen Chimera to gain life when you draw cards... and a 3\2 flyer w\ flash for 2GU isn't too shabby either.

I totally understand not sinking tons of money into a deck- ain't nobody got time for that :-) So casual budget style it is. I like that too.

And I think the Pull, the Take up Arms, and the Helix can all come out. Maybe for 4x Divination and 3x Military Intelligence\ Jace's Ingenuity\ Treasure Cruise. And you know, I was looking at the Horse... lol He is halarious. The Herald is a one drop 1\2 for W that can outlast for 2W- when you outlast, put a 1\1 Warrior token into play. A little slow, but not terrible... it might be that with the token spells we have and the launch the fleet, there are enough tokens...

You also might want to run a few Ordeal of Thassa- it's a staple to the Tom Ross u\w heroic that draws cards when it pops... and I don't think the War-wing Siren is necessary- since you've got 8 spells to get blockers out of the way. That would open up the spot for the Ordeal.

HAHA- I def understand your concern about Icy Blast and your own guys. That would be awful if you had one heroic guy trying to Blast your on dudes..... although, at the point in the game if you have a 4+ power guy, you don't need to target your guys- you're def tapping them down.

So I have a couple ideas on card drawing.... there's the budget and the non-budget. The non budget is easy- you run 4x Dig Through Time. That's just a good card in general, but it's a bit pricy. But looking at the top 7 and picking 2 will certainly help find the Thaumaturge... or a tap spell if you already have him out. Otherwise it's probably a combination on Divination, Jace's Ingenuity, and\or Treasure Cruise- which isn't terrible. The Cruise might actually be better than the Dig, esp with this deck and all it's instants. We'll just have to check and see what kind of space we're looking to fill...

And I like the Devouring Light with a heavy token build. Free spells are good. With the BT on the field and facing 3 attackers you can Raise the Alarm, block 2, and then Devouring Light the 3rd... all for 2 mana. That's pretty efficent.... and with 3 or 4 more mana, change those tokens into 4\4's? I like it. Plus after you do it once, it makes the opponent worry about attacking into it the rest of the game.

I think this deck would def run Negate in the SB. I'm wondering if Stubborn Denial in the main would work, or even be worth it. I don't know how consistantly there would be a 4+ power creature out. But I agree, protecting the Angel or the BT is key. But don't forget, the BT has heroic that gives him hexproof as well. Additionally, with an Hour of Need in hand, you can respond to a Bile Blight targeting a spirit or soldier by making it a Sphnix.

I really like Hour of Need, but the need for creatures on the board is paramont for it to be useful. In fact, this whole deck requires to from the convoke cards to the Hour of Need to the Angel being a win condition. I'm wondering what other sources of token generators there are- Chasm Skulker comes to mind... esp if we're adding card draw... Coral Barrier is a good stall card, gives you 2 guys, and then 2 HoN targets... First Response seems really slow.... God Favored General seems ok, and at the same time the Herald of Anafenza... Heliod put's cleric tokens, but that's even more expensive... perhaps we change the build to make it support Spirit Bonds.... hmmmm.... or in the heroic build the Vanguard of Brimaz... I think some testing to see how difficult it is to keep tokens on the board may be in order... I think I'm getting stuck on the Spirit Bonds though... to shift the build in that direction... that's another one of those cards that I want to play but couldn't find the deck for it...... hmm....

You could probably run them over the Retribution?

Alright Kraken- I'm on board. I'm posting here because this was the last build I looked at and I think between the 2 u\w builds, you've got some serious fun with this idea. When I read the first u\w list, my first thought was that you missed Icy Blast- I'm glad it's here. My question is this- why not run both it and the Glimpse the Sun God in the same build? Really abuse that Thaumaturge. The trick is going to be to build a shell that works without the Thaumaturge- if the deck is built around one card and we never see it, then the deck get slaughtered every time. But since the deck is obviously blue, we can draw a ton of cards- Divanation, Jace's Ingenuity, Treasure Cruise- just to name the cheap ones. And Launch the Fleet is a must. All those spells makes the X = the number of creatures on the board, which could\should be excessive.

4x Thaumaturge, 4x Glimpse the Sun God, 4x Icy Blast, 4x Launch the Fleet

The Blast and the Glimpse will be good early or late- to help hold on to find the Thaumaturge, or ideally go off when he's on the board. So the question is- heroic shell, or heavy tokens? The problem with tokens is Bile Blight is running rampant in the format. The plus to tokens are cheap, pop up instantly, and in multiples. I also like the Hour of Need- just one of those cards I'd like to play with\ break. It does fit the deck with either shell, but it's 4 power triggers Ferocious and that could be key with the Blast. And I really like the Angel attacking with Launch the Fleet- then maybe the Phalanx Formation on said Angel? Lot's of potential there. Probably some Ajani's Presence? Maybe Feat of Resistance?

What do you think?

I can certainly understand liking a card and wanting to play with it- I've done that myself :-). For me though- he's just slow... he hits the table on turn 5, next turn he "attacks", and the turn after that he threatens to do damage. And that middle turn he's just not there. Sure, you could send him to attack, next turn Wrath, and the turn after he's back and attacking, but that sounds like another deck idea for another day..... regardless, I hope he works for you.

I agree the Growth has a clunky casting cost (no clunkier than the turtle though ;oP), but I still think I'm ok opening a hand with a Cut in it. You never want to cast it before turn 3 anyway, and it's like a warm blanket knowing you can take out whatever you want. And I do like Mind Rot\Secret, but only early in the game. Mid game it's ok, and late game it's value is minamal. It's a terrible top deck, and totally useless when you're opponent is out of cards. That might want to be a card you run 3 of instead of the Cut.

Either way, good luck with the deck. I've certainly enjoyed this thread:-)

Here's the build I'm working with.... very close, with a few differences:

http://www.mtgvault.com/bellz76/decks/bg-kintree-need-sb-help/

You would run both Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight? The deck runs 24 spells that cost 3 or less- the Eidolon would hurt me more than help. The Rabblemaster and Anger of the Gods don't play well together. And the 2 blue in the Dictate make it impracticle to splash. If anything I'd have to switch it to U\B and splash the red, but I haven't had an success with that build.

Thanks for the shout out :-) I apprecaite that. I've been toying with my build as well as a little testing and have a few more ideas for you to consider:

First off, I think you should keep the Cuts at 4. You're going to need to get blockers out of the way, and that's the only way you currently have to do it main deck. Also I was thinking of running a few of your sideboard strategy cards in the main deck to help get damage through as well. The Captain or Nightblade with the Incremental Growth would help get your big guys through. Or instead of the Growth, Awaken the Bear- that gives a guy trample... Turn 1- Ancestor, Turn 2 Kin Tree, Turn 3 swing for 4- cast Awaken the Bear- for 7 damage. Or even other cards like Dragonscale Boon, Hunt the Weak, Nature's Panoply, or Bow of Nylea to add counters. I think the Bow might be the best there.

And I think the Turtle isn't going to help this deck much. Sure, he makes the Kin-tree a 9\9, but that's about it. He isn't a great attacker, and if you're just using him as a blocker, there are def better cards to do that. You've already got an 0\4 and an 0\5 main deck- I say make them land #24 and Cut # 4.

And what is the purpose for the Despise and Secret? This deck (or any creature deck) will have a tough time with removal, and Despise doesn't help there. Maybe something like Mortal's Resolve or Ranger's Guile? That will help you protect your creatures.

You also might want to run a few more removal spells yourself. If you do bump up the Cuts to 4, Bile Blight might be a really good addition- esp with all the token decks being as successful as they are.

Is there any reason that you want to put cards in the yard with Secret? Sure, they are good for the Cuts, but that's just 1 card- and w\ only 3 copies (hopefully 4), you're probably losing more value than what you're gaining. If you want to keep a few more cards in the yard, run some copies of Evolving Wilds. Or even sac a creature or two with the Bloodsucker. And if you want to keep the discard, Mind Rot works the same w\o costing you cards off the top.

Like I said, just a few more ideas to try out. I really like the deck idea, and there seems to be a bunch of solid ways to make it work- esp at the budget level. Keep us posted with any changes or updates to how it plays!

You know, I don't think that guy gets enough credit... a 6\6 for 5 is insane- sure, I know it's 3 green, but it's green.... even in the listed build, there are 15 green sources in the mana base and an additional 8 in creatures... yeah, that guy is a house.

I agree that instant speed is better than sorcery, but 3 is bettan than 2, and 1 blue is better than 2.... also, if you're trying to stay budget, Cruise is much cheaper :-)

With so many 4+ power creatures, Stubborn Denial is a good card to consider. Most of your creatures will be bigger than your opponents, so stopping their removal is paramont. Hero's Downfall gets under the Disdainful Stroke, and so does Drown in Sorrow- which would kill your mana dorks, morphed hydras, and Boon Satyrs. You could cut the price down by running Treasure Cruise in the main- that card is on par, if not better than Dig. Another cheap option is the Icefeather Aven. Ashcloud Phoenix is definately worthy of the main deck- big time. And if it's possible, Shivan Reefs are cheaper than the Temples, and since they don't come in tapped, help you get your fatties out on curve.

You're very welcome! And I agree that token decks can be a lot of fun as well, it just seemed like the warrior shell you had would have been better served with more non-tokens. I like your changes. I'm assuming that the 2 missing cards would be the Bile Blights? I might just run 3 Return and then 3 Blight. And Seeker of the Way might be better than the Hordemate. If you want to invest a little more money into the deck, Caves of Koilos would be a great fit, but you can also go with the Khans life land Scoured Barrens- they are common and won't cost anything. And lastly, you could run Mogis Marauder in the sideboard. Bring him in against non black decks to help get those final points of damage through. I'm really curious how this deck runs now- it looks like it would be a lot of fun. :-)