Bellz76

I think you hit the nail on the head there- I think we're just disputing personal preference. I prefer a few more counterspells, you prefer more spot removal. That being the case, with your build looking to swap out the Sandblast, I'll suggest 2 main deck EH. :-)

No, no- I understand the difference between the Vault and EH- and I'm not disputing the effectiveness of the Vault and the benefits of popping it on their turn, I'm saying that it's much slower than EH. U\B runs the vault because it has to. They don't have access to the likes of EH. They rely heavily on their spot removal and going 1 for 1 in the exchanges. I can almost assure you that any U\B control post Reforge will run Crux of Fate over the Vault- or at least 4-2. Not to mention there will be times it's vulnerable to Reclamation Sage or other effects.

Well, to each his own with the land. If 25 is your magic number, I say do what works. I find that when I'm not drawing enough land I either increase the land, increase the card drawing, or both- depending on the type of deck, of course.

Reality Shift is card disadvantage in that you play your card to remove their creature card but in the end they still have a 2\2. Yes, it may put you in a better board position (your Stormbreath example), but in the end, your opponent gets more from the exchange thus making it card disadvantage. Yeah, nothing is quite like Sphinx's Revelation (thankfully :oP), but a 6 casting cost sorcery that could give you 3 cards or less in 33 cards out of your 60 doesn't seem good to me. You could even land 0 cards from that spell. Why risk it? For 5 mana and instant speed you're getting 3 regardless. I think I'd run 4 Dig and 3 Ingenuity and maybe some count of Divination.

And I prefer to run more than 7 Counterspells. I'd rather not rely on the spot removal as much, instead counting on the card advantage of the EH and deciding on which of their creatures I allow to hit the board. When you need to stop a card from hitting the table, I want to have more options to do that rather then trying to deal with say a hexproof creature, or Gods Willing, or the Whip. I most certainly want some spot removal, but I'd rather have a few more counters in hand.

Not a bad start, but I think you have a few cards that you might not need, and are missing a few that you absolutely do.

First off, I'd say 24 lands is enough- and of those 24, you should probably run a couple Radiant Fountains- maybe more than a couple, but I'd say def run them. And don't forget your Temple of Enlightenment (+1 spot)

Secondly- As u\w you should def be running 4 main deck End Hostilities. No questions asked. I understand you like the exile portion of the vault, but it's REALLY slow. The Vault costs 9 mana to play and activate... End Hostilities takes 5. If you're in trouble early, you'd have to take 2 turns to play the vault and pop it... and that's 2 turns that you won't be able to counterspell. (vault out\ EH in -even)

Third- Reality Shift, Sandblast, Interpret the Signs, and Jace are all unnecessary. The Reality Shift is card disadvantage, the Sandblast is a worse copy of Devouring Light, Interpret the Signs is not nearly as good as either Dig or Jace's Ingenuity- both of which you have room to play additional copies- and this version of Jace is subpar. (+7)

Forth- You'll probably need more card draw. I'd increase the Dig, Ingenuity, and the Divination all by +1. (-3 spots)

Fifth- You'll also probably need more than 7 counterspells, and maybe more hard counters. Dissapate will help with your exile concern, and depending on your area's meta, play more or less of the Stroke or Blast. So at least 4x Dissolve, 4x Dissapate, and 2x of one or the other? (-3 spots)

So even after all the card swapping I'm suggesting, there are still 2 spots available. Maybe you add 2 vaults back in... maybe you main deck Last Breath. I would do some playtesting and see if there are matches that the deck is weak against.

Hope that helps. Happy building!

I'd like the record to show that KMK and I are 2 different people- even though the first half of his post looks a lot like mine... :-)

I like this idea- a lot. I have a pre-Fate Reforged build of Waste Not and I'm with you- really like the card. Mine fits more into the devotion shell. If you want to take a peek:

http://www.mtgvault.com/bellz76/decks/mono-black-waste-not/

Either way, Dark Deal is an automatic in this deck. I've had more success with Mind Rot and Raksasha's Secret than Despise and Thoughtseize. Any kind of multiple discard effect is key. And with that in mind, the question is how can we abuse this combo? Here's my first thought:

On the play- If we get the god draw and have Waste Not on 2 and Dark Deal on 3, that's going to put 5 cards in our graveyard and then we draw 4 more (plus any from Waste Not), and hopefully we'll be hitting at least 5 from our opponents hand- (6 if we're lucky- let's just say 5). Obviously the best case is we hit at least 2 lands from their first 5, and we draw another Dark Deal. We quickly fire that off again for another 4 discards from our opponent. They'll be down to 3 cards and we should be 3+ whatever Waste Not gives us, plus we'll have however many zombies as well. Our graveyard will also be super full- the initial 5, and at least 4 more. So from here- where to?

1st- With this kind of graveyard population, do we want to be taking advantage of some delve cards? Murderous Cut is an obvious keeper. The Soulflayer is good- even if he's just a turn 3 vanilla 4\4- or we could put some support cards in there for him. In my build, I run Erebos. Would be cool to have a turn 3 4\4 industructable. The Soul of Innistrad has deathtouch for the SoulFlayer, or would help us reload our hand with any of the creatures we had to discard. Or if we aren't delving and we're creature heavy, then just the return option seems good as well.

2nd- Does this deck need to be monoblack? Ideally we want to be able to put some cards in our opponents hand to make them discard again. Sign in Blood does that, but there's a bunch of blue cards that do that was well. The Dictate of Kruphix is one, or the new card Fasccination... would also give us access to some bounce which would allow for more discard. Also could run the Torrent Elemental. We can delve him away and then recast from exile... can also give the Soulflayer flying if we're going that route... maybe run Thousand Winds... swing with Elemental, unmorph Thousand Winds, pick up all your creatures- more discard targets. That's a bit combo-y, but just a thought. But if we do go into blue, that gives us access to Treasure Cruise as well....

3rd- Do we want to go reanimation? With all the discard on both sides, Endless Obedience could work really well. If they discard 2 lands and 2 creatures from their first 5 that gives us 2 zombies and 4 mana.... just enough to reanimate one of their creatures, or maybe one of ours... is that a Seige Rhino you just tossed? Perfect... or maybe a turn 3 6\6 Soul? We could run the Whip or Escape the Underworld.

I think the key is going to be to make sure the deck can survive if we don't see the Waste Not. Sure, the discard will help, but the support cards need to be strong as well.

So what do you think?

I like this idea a lot. I do think if you're going to build a deck around a card, you should run 4 copies of that card main deck. Def +1 of the Soulflayer. I also think a 4th Wayfinder is needed. Not only is his milling ability key to Soulflayer, but in a 5 color deck, you need that land. I can't think of a time you want to open up a hand and not see him. I'm also not a fan of the 1 of Shaman or the 3x Scheming. You have plenty of delve fuel with 7 fetch lands, 4 Wayfinders, and 4 Stubborn Denials- I think you need some card drawing in here. If you think you have too much delve to run Treasure Cruise (I don't think you are), at least Divinations. I don't think the Seige will be enough. Don't forget, the deck still needs to be able to survive\ play without the Soulflayer.

Again, I like the idea and hope the tweeking works. Happy building!

Thinking Wall of Mulch is better than the Parapet. It sacks itself for a card, which can also trigger the Bloodsucker.

One of the initial builds included Pull From the Deep- because after a Steam Augury that reveals Worst Fears (and usually lands it in the graveyard), your opponent will obviously watch you target it with a Pull back to your hand... that will usually mean they guess over every time the Phoenix hits.

I think I like the Ranger's Guile too. Although I still think that Kiora's Follower is better than the Right of Spring. Turn 1 Harden Scales- Turn 2 Follower- Turn 3 Skulker, Scourge, or War-wing w\ 1 forest still untapped for Guile backup. Or you leave the island up for Tactics vs red decks.

Here are a few thoughts...... if I'm seeing this correctly, there are only 7 cards that you look to win the game for you, right? 4 Skulker, 1 Sarkin, 1 Kearnos, and 1 Master? The Servants can do a little work, but you aren't counting on them for the heavy lifting. Only 3 Magma Jet... the Skulkers start off as 1\1's... So right away, it looks like winning is going to be challenging. You only have 5 targets to gain benefit from sacking your Servants... There isn't enough interaction with your opponent. Yes- the Circle of Fire and Polymorphers jests works well.... once. And you only have 3 copies of the Jest. Without more interaction, the Skulker will never get big, Jace and Sarkin will never survive the table, and all your deck will do is toss lots of cards in the yard and then draw cards w\ the Cruise. That won't win you too many games.

Also, the Master of Predicaments is only marginal- at least in this build. You'll never cast the Cruise for free because no one will pick the low becasue none of the low cards here really punish them for guessing wrong. Don't get me wrong- I like that Sphinx, but you need to build in some painful cards for the 4 and under.... a few things I tried were Mind Rot, Stoke the Flames, Steam Augery, Hero's Downfall, Chandra, and Divination- just to name a few. That way you have a chancec to sneak in a 5+ casting cost spell because you've already stung them with the smaller spells. But the problem there is that you need to make that 5+ casting cost spell be really nasty- my favorite choice was Worst Fears. Something like this was my initial attempts.

http://www.mtgvault.com/bellz76/decks/master-of-fears/

Ultimately, I think you need some more win conditions and a little more interaction with your opponent to make your deck idea go.

Hope this helped some.

I tried it here:
http://www.mtgvault.com/bellz76/decks/ur-riptide-chimera-budget/

might want to condsider splashing white for Abzan Ascendacy and Charm...

This idea has some really good parts. Riptide Chimera + Dragon Mantle is awesome. Chimera+ Syren is pretty cool too to keep the Chimera on the board for cheap. However, Anger of the Gods + Quickling or Syren is not so good. And I think this deck will burn itself out within a few turns and has no way to reload. 3 Weave Fate are ok, but won't be enough with all your burn spells. With this many instants, Treasure Cruise will be your best friend. And instead of Magma Spray, how about Lightning Strike and\or Magma Jet.

Also, you only have 11 enchantments total. That isn't enough to support the Chimera. I'm certain that you'll be stuck casting him and then bouncing him before he can attack. Sure, 3\4 flying for 2U is a pretty good for a blocker, but you really want him to swing... depending on how you would want to develop this concept, you can run more enchantment creatures, or more enchantments- or both. Consider this- Singing Bell Strike would work really well in this build. It's good early w\o the Chimera, and when you find him, you'll probably have a better target for it if it's still on the board. Hammerhand could be really good if you're casting a new creature every turn, giving it haste, and preventing a blocker. And if you're going to be potentially recasting things that target, how about some heroic guys? Akroan Crusader for tokens, Arena Athlete for more blocker prevention, Labyrinth Champion for direct damage, Satyr Hoplite for just a big guy, Wavecrash Triton means you can lock down 2 guys forever (1 on the first turn, the second the next and repeat), Trition Fortune Hunter means you draw an extra card a turn (2 if you're bouncing Dragon Mantle), Triton Cavalry would give you another option to bounce an enchantment (side note- this could be pretty broken if you play the Mantle on to the Cavalry, draw a card, then return the Mantle to it's owners hand. Now that card basically reads pay R, draw a card), Warwing Syren becomes a huge flyer, and if you want to get super tricky, Artisan of Forms (I needed my own Courser of Crufix- thank you), Meletis Astronomer (to find more enchantments), Sage of Hours (extra turns- what?), or Mindreaver (mill 3 and for counter? hmmmm).... so there are tons of options. Ha! You want to run your Thurmatage and Icy Blast combo? That could fit too.

So I think you see my point. Some really neat come into play effects you can abuse with heroic triggers... could take this deck a different direction, but keep some of the core the same. Could be really neat to try it with different color combos... The Chimera w\black gives you Agent of Fates for an every turn sac effect, crippling blight to prevent a new blocker every turn, Retribution of the Ancients if you play the guys who get counters, Scourgemark gives you +1\+0 and draws a card, and Grim Guardian to drain their life every turn...

I hope this helps- I know that I kind of got carried away, but it was your idea that sent my brain on overdrive. :-)

Cheers!

The Void Snare, Magma Jet, and Generator Servant are the early plays. You typically see one of these in the early going, and that's enough to get you to turn 3 and 4. It's obviously going to depend on the board state if you feel comfortable casting Divination on 3 compared to Chill or Contemplation, but a turn 3 or 4 Ember Swallower is usually enough to stablize.

The Servants are..... ok. They are great on turn 2 when you have the 3rd turn 4 or 5 drop... and just ok the rest of the way. I've seen them do some work when you don't have your Sphinx or Swallower but do have the QC in place, haste on a stick isn't bad either, and 2 more for a Mind Swipe is nice to boot. They are pretty fragile- any burn spell kills them- but….

I had been considering Icy Blast, but with only 8 creatures to trigger Ferocious, I'm not sure how effective it will be. It might work better if instead of Keranos I ran say... Storm Breath Dragon or Ashcloud Phoenix or another 4 power 4\5 drop... hmm... maybe the Dragon Style Twins... that could be an idea.... and I like the Thurmaturge, but I don't think he fits in here. I'd rather not play a card that only interacts with one other card in the deck. Kraken and I were trying to break that card here: http://www.mtgvault.com/thekraken/decks/thaumatic-effect/ but that’s as close as we got. The same goes for the Mystic- I don’t think he fits either. I’d rather not give my opponent cards in this deck.

Here's my early attempt:
http://www.mtgvault.com/bellz76/decks/abzan-bonds/

Meh- this is literally a giant pile of rares... what's the idea behind the deck? does it do anything? The only cards you have 4 of are the Courser, Caryatid, and the See the Unwritten. Courser and Caryatid go hand in hand in almost every green deck, but you don't have any creatures with power 4 or greater to help it trigger ferocious for the Unwritten- not without help. And 2 random Gifts? and 2 random Godsends? I'm certain the deck can win games on the strength of the level of the card power alone, but I'm not sure I'd call it a deck.... depending on what you want to do with it, shaving a few things and increasing different cards can take it to an agro deck or a midrange deck... Brimaz and the Fleecemane are more the agro pieces, but the Queen, Hydra, and even the plainswalkers are more midrange... not saying that any of those are bad cards, but I find that the pieces work together better when there's a plan to the deck... just my opinion.

I have a few concerns...... What would the ideal draw be? An opening hand of the Spirit Guide and the Ancestor... Turn 1 Scoured Barrens, Turn 2 land- Guide, Turn 3 land- Ancestor (or Baleful Eidolon)\ Spirit Token... turn 4 land- Geist\ spirit token- swing with 1 token, turn 5 land- bestow Eidolon of CB\ spirit token- swing for 10 and 2 tokens? But this isn't missing any land drops, and having all the cards... It just feels fragile. Additionally, it's going to take forever to get the Triplicate Spirits online... and all the while, you're opponent is doing stuff and we have very little interaction with them. Sure, if we can get the guide online AND get the Dictate out, it's pretty awesome... but turn 5 is so far away... and with only 2 Dictates, you have to hope to have it\ find it... or if we get the Obelisk, it's still turn 4? Personally, I don't think the token generation is the key to this card. I think you're on the right path by playing other spirits, but there should be other creature types that will benefit the other half of the card... something like a threat the opponent needs to answer- that sacking a spirit to protect it becomes useful. Or you make it a Duneblast effect... sac a token, End Hostilites, and swing... I'm not sure where to go from here yet either, but just wanted to leave my thoughts....

I like this build. I know the Mystics and Dictates are in there to help find the combo, and at the same time get more of their cards out of the way, but would it be better to just use some card draw? Treasure cruise or Divination? Something that doesn't give your opponents cards too? And what kind of side board would this run? Probably 2 more Aegis of the Gods to protect vs the Eidelon... maybe some Wrath effect for super creature heavy builds? End Hostilities? Mass Calcify seems to expensive, even if it does spare the Guard... Aetherspouts is somewhat counter-productive....

any ideas?

Yeah, that guy does seem pretty broken... although I'd probably -1 Magma Jet, -2 Lightning Strikes, and -1 Jeskai Charm and +4 Treasure Cruise.

Yeah, I was thinking the Vanguard too.... hmm... and I think the Phalanx Formation could be cut as the lowest impact to the deck concept. But they are good surprise cards... not sure.