Snakerunners

The debate for Mistcutter got out of hand lololol

Ninja isn't completely wrong about it being a sideboard card; the issue is though that just because Pro players make best use of it in sideboard they are dealing with different decks, different meta etc. So just because it is typically a sideboard card doesn't mean it needs to be a sideboard card at all times. I think we learned this with Thoughtseize, modern it was side occasionally main, at first they were typically more sideboarded now we notice they are best main, then again you typically need a deck that isn't taking damage from shocklands or has some lifegain. Ultimately Mistcutter is typically sideboard, doesn't mean it needs to be, there may be better cards but what? Fanatic of Xenagos.. maybe but it's a 3/3 maybe a 4/4 for 3cmc Mistcutter can get big and better than that and has haste AND doesn't allow your opponents to make the best choice for them. Desecration Demon... maybe but maybe not, it can be a shit card, worse than mistcutter at it's worst, if they have the right board position etc etc

Possibly one of the better jund builds I've come across
I think you would be better off with some of the following suggestions:

-2 Elvish Mystic
+2 Sylvan Caryatid
The better toughtness, hexproof, and color fixing is better than having a one drop where you have shocklands and scry lands.

-2 Domri
+2 Burning-tree
2 of Burning tree just seems like too small a number, they are decent for going into casting Mortars, or Caryatid, and providing devotion for Xenagos. Domri I feel isn't going to provide the right support, you don't have enough creatures to get much if anything from the +1, using him to fight just isn't worth it with kill spells, and the ultimate is just unlikely to happen. It's cool when it happens but otherwise a very lofty goal

-1 Vraska
+1 Underworld Connection (think you should maybe find room for a second)
You have enough Vraska, if anything you could put it sideboard for the right match ups but 3 main seems too high. Underworld Connections is pretty solid and usually a necessary evil to generate the gas you need for a midrange deck.

-1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Pack Rat
I suggest this because 2 rats isn't enough. They become more and more powerful the more you have of them in the deck, while scavenging ooze is good enough as a 2-of. There isn't a ton of graveyard abuse in standard, you need a ton of green to make him as effective as possible and need there to be a ton in the grave for it to be effective. Usually you end up just making one huge one and getting a second ends up useless.

-1 Savageborn Hydra
+1 Mistcutter
Honestly I think Mistcutter is better because of the haste, and the pro green. Savage can be huge but dies to removal pretty easy and doesn't make any huge impact on any match up in particular. This is the lightest suggestion though, out of all of the suggestions this is probably the least impactful as Savage isn't terrible and provides slightly better devotion to Xenagos.

-2 Dreadbore
+2 Mizzium Mortars
You could move them sideboard I suppose but you would probably be better served with the Mortars main in you had to face off against rats, and or Blood Baron. You already have Abrupt, and Heros Downfall to deal with creatures and planeswalkers. Don't forget about the ability overload, can be very solid.


Sideboarding in Slaughter Games could be awesome also.

Vault of the Archangel would be cool, the issue with something that provides lifelink is that either it makes little impact (whip of erebos) with this deck or that it is colorless land which hurts spectral procession which in a 3 color is already troublesome. Then again the impact of Vault may make it worthwhile, especially if procession is out because this is an extended deck. Probably a good thing to consider as a 1 or 2 of in the land base

While a total badass, I would think it's more of an EDH or casual card. He is just too expensive for a deck that isn't finding some way to get this guy into play without some kind of help, Birthing Pod, ramp, or some serious control deck using him as a solo finisher too which there are better ones such as Thundermaw haste and hates on lingering souls, Restoration Angel because it can flash in snapcaster again which will re-trigger him, Celestial Colonnade because it is a man land. (This is for a UWR list); not to mention these are all cheaper options than Reaver.

Reaver needs time aka control, and needs something to protect him, aka captain (hexproof) otherwise a kill spell will kill him. Needing both captain and control makes for a wonky deck.

I try my hardest to give the best advice I can. I was going to type out a ton in the first place but realized that an entire thesis paper of suggestions and explanations etc could ultimately be useless give you had no desire to go for modern competitive or something.

I don't know around you how extended goes but from everything I know extended pretty much turned into modern and then died; it wasn't a popular format. AKA I don't know much of anything about extended and in that case I can't really speak much for necessary changes. I'm assuming it is a more powerful format that standard though and given that I believe what I said was true and in general.

And like I said before, I'd cut some anthem's probably down to 4 Captains, 4 Virtue, 2 Spear. Or maybe 4 Captains, 3 virtue, 1 spear, 2 favorable winds. 6 Anthem effects without other added benefits is enough beyond that you risk just flooding on anthems and useless spells without an ability to pressure an opponent. The second one I suggested would probably work fine because 3 virtue should be enough that you'll find at least one, 1 spear because it's legendary, and 2 winds because you have mostly flyers and it will buff your captains where virtue doesn't.

3-4 Virtue
1-2 Spears (remember this is a legendary)
1-2 Favorable wind
Find a number of each that adds to 6 that you find most suitable; this is a strong suggestion.

Giest of Saint Traft is a good good friend to you here. While it is legendary you could still get away running 3-4 because they may die but they are strong enough on impact and pressure that holding an extra or two isn't a big deal.

Hero of Bladehold could be kind of fun because of the token generation and mild anthem effect (battle cry).

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad depending on how you go about your anthem effects could still be a very solid addition because he generates, consistently, lifelink blockers and occasionally an anthem of his own. Threatening with his ultimate can also relieve pressure from yourself.

Again depending on how you go about your deck adding in a power sword or two wouldn't be a terrible idea; this would be really good with Saint Traft because despite hexproof it can be a little weaker in combat at first. Like I said however upping the count of GoST in the first place isn't a terrible idea, if you do 4 of them then sword is not necessary because you'll only make the one survive that is in play while the others end up sitting rotten in your hand. If you do 4 of and one just happens to survive no big deal that means your winning probably but if you can insure ones survival with sword then effectively your wasting precious space in your deck.

Here is something to take a look at for some good ideas: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43969

Jon Finkel's esper spirits deck, it was standard mind you. He did a solid job with this deck though, and there are things to consider from the deck. One for example is the use of phantasmal image, while it was probably more powerful then than now, with the change of legendary rules, it can still act as a "second captain" because if you target the captain now you have a copy and they give each other hexproof which now removes an images weakness of being targeted kills it cause now it can't really be targeted.

Delver while a good card and everthing.. not sure it would make the cut because it's not a spirit, not a token, and not exactly what you seem to be focusing on in this deck, without ponder or brainstorm the card is kind of a flop. I don't know if ponder is legal in extend or not though.


Anyways there is a ton to consider for a deck like this because you can throw in a TON of different elements, counters, draw, kill, hand control (thoughtseize, LotV), what anthem effects make the best impact (sorin with multiple uses) etc etc etc.

Finally to the end; I like what you've got going I think your just a little tweaking away from something pretty darn solid, and I like the direction you moved with the latest iteration of the deck. Best of luck and keep brewing!

Short answer: Other than having too many anthems, seems like it could be a fun casual deck.

Long Answer: too complicated to go through in total if it is useless. If you plan on making this into a modern competitive deck there is probably a ton of changes I would suggest. Teysa, never going to make an impact, true conviction same; this has to do with extreme mana costs. Scry lands not the best option in comparison to a lot of other options available for modern such as man lands, fastlands, fetch lands. You would need to cut a ton of anthem effects, up the creature/token count and add in some utility cards like thoughtseize, maybe even go control with some mana leak and/or remand.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55299

I guess no Dark Confidant. I heard someone at my LGS @ FNM mention something about Dark Maverick and Bob but I don't know.


I'm not trying to pull the same thing as the other guy but I would really really really like your input in my Junk Midrange deck for Standard. This is going to be the deck I play throughout this upcoming season almost guaranteed but I need to figure out my exact list; so far I've only lost 1 match in the last 3 FNM's but I think there were more than a few matches where I got lucky.

This is my current list: http://www.mtgvault.com/snakerunners/decks/theros-junk-midrange-3/

My issue with this deck is I feel like I don't have a ton of consistency with a ton of 1 and 2-of's. Also running Caryatid among the other 2 drops I feel like I draw dead occasionally just getting Voice, Fleecemane and maybe L.Smiter.

This is what I'm thinking about changing it into, which was influenced by a list Conley Woods just put up on Channel Fireball: http://www.mtgvault.com/snakerunners/decks/theros-junk-midrange-20/

I have Underworld Connections sideboard at least but I've been thinking about running it main because I could use the card advantage and consistency gain. Also not running Caryatid means I can naturally curve out which means I'll at least have more power in hand however Caryatid is good fixing at the same time with an imperfect mana base.

Ultimately I'm kind of torn on what to ultimately aim for. Serious thanks in advance if you do take a look and have an input.

I'm not a legacy player, I may have mentioned that before. However this is one of the decks that I found really interesting and even wanted to try it out if I had the money to build it. I am curious however about it's position in the meta, I've heard this deck isn't powerful enough in legacy in comparison to many other decks that have been taking over. Has this been your experience?

Something else I'm curious about is Dark Maverick. I've heard of it never looked up a list but I believe it runs Dark Confidant and deathrite shaman. What are your thoughts on this deck if you have any experience or knowledge of it, or just opinions about wanting to avoid Bob because of the life issue it may present.

Really don't like Quicken as I believe it does next to nothing. Maybe it is necessary here because your only running 24 land in control and therefore need all the draw you can get to guarantee all of your land drops. However I think it's effect means nothing except making your sorcery spells more expensive having to wait 1.5 extra turns to make a difference.

Magma Jet, kills next to nothing and even less if you consider the cards you would rather kill other ways or will just trick you out of the kill. It's only effective as 2 to the face which still means nothing in control really. Your more or less playing it for the scry effect which again I see it's importance in a control deck with a low land count.

4 Sphinx's Revelations, personally I don't think you need it as a 4 of but more as a 3 of adding in a 2nd maybe even a 3rd Jace, Architect of Though given you cut anything else. 4 isn't bad, actually at the SCG Open in Indianapolis the top esper decks were running it as a 4 of.

I also think you'd be well off putting more spot removal in main with detention sphere and or turn // burn. Especially as each can deal with gods which may be important, but even still they can deal with many other threats just as effectively.

Wear // tear could come in hand dealing with god weapons, detention spheres and or pithing needles from opponents. You can fit at least 1 in if you removed Isperia which I don't think is that great of a creature and entirely unnecessary to run in the deck.

Also lastly I think Elspeth should be mainboard in place of either the Angel of Serenity or in place of 1 of the Stormbreath Dragons.

Other than a handful of small "issues" if you can really call them that I think the deck looks fairly solid and fun. Not quite my style and I'm lacking far too much of the deck to consider putting it together myself for FNM but best of luck to you with it anyways.

@Trollking21, ahh I understand that Elspeth issue. I got lucky enough that last FNM I won 8 packs and pulled one.

As far as divination... yeah I have no idea where it would go. It just happens that I've seen it in control lists recently because usually you want more draw than just Revelation but I suppose Jace is good enough.

@Poet, I can kind of see your point about "pro-tours" specifically however I think pro players are a very good mirror in which to judge your deck and the choices made. 26-27 land in control is common currently, not even just in the Pro Tour but afterwards pro players learned more and still are using a high land count. Also there is a very common trend among pro decks about what cards you will and will not see in competitive play.

First of all PoetMaster "My experience is: pro-tours are usually not the place where you see the most competative decks... :)" REALLY?! Then tell me where? It's not like these guys spend a TON of their time testing in groups of others who have proven over years (most likely) that they are the best players in the world. And they test a ton of decks and brew a ton of decks. Hell these guys came up with the format defining decks like mono-blue, mono-black (which has been winning a ton of tournaments recently). Also Mihara came up with the original list for G/R devotion which has since been polished up a bit. I've tested it a decent amount and that deck is f'ing ridiculous. However some Esper lists very similar to this have been topping tournaments in the hands of pro players such as Wafo-tapa. In those lists the players are running 26-27 land. Now I could possibly see 25 maybe... but I think 26 is fine especially when you want to be making EVERY land drop for the first at least 7 turns or so. But whatever you are entitled to your beliefs and such anyways.


Trollking, the only thing I'm curious about here really is the lack of divination. I know over the years we have been kind of taught that it isn't exactly a great draw engine but considering the lack of draw in standard as of current I have noticed lists including a few. Have you thought about doing the same or are you avoiding it?

Well actually I just noticed you removed Elspeth also. Any reason why? Just too weak against some decks especially with Hero's Downfall?

Again I'll have to bow to others knowledge of the deck as this isn't something I've used, at least not yet however I have a few small input suggestions possibly.

-3 Magma jet, again the scry is kind of nice but I'm going off of more or less the small information I have. I haven't seen too many creatures that I would magma jet personally. Most of what I'm facing in standard has a bigger butt than 2 or I don't really want to kill it like this, aka VoR. I suppose 2 to the face and scry two is okay but I've always gathered that control needs to deal with on-board threats instead of seemingly useless damage.

Too fill the space I was thinking maybe +1 ætherling (or maybe +1 Aurelia or Niv-mizzet as different win cons, plus niv can deal with creatures or do extra damage while drawing you more cards). Then the other 2 spaces would be 2 anger of the gods. You mentioned previously that you are trying to shy away from Anger but I've played against it and it does do some work, it can slow many decks early game including VoR or S.Caryatid, also it messes with S.Ooze a bit. I got stone rained by Anger relying on it to get me the mana I needed to get to L.Smiter, I'm running 24 land in a mid-range which I believe is about what I need especially while running 4 cayatid, 2 fleecemane, 3 voice, 2 S.Ooze, 4 Smiter and then a good handful of kill at 2-3cmc. However even still I got mana screwed there. It's a tricky balance, mana, in midrange because I will get screwed one game and flooded the next.

Now what I previously mentioned about mana plays into Poetmasters comments. Poet you say 24 mana in control, I will also respectfully disagree. I've seen my midrange deck with ramp fall short on mana more than a few times so I think as a rule of thumb control should be playing 25,26 mana at least even if 1 or 2 is mutavault or something like that; not my first choice because you'd rather have color fixing. Also the "issue" with slaughter games is slightly irrelevant. There aren't many decks running slaughter games that I've seen, and then on top of that it would be 3 at most. Now if the opponent boarded 3 SG then to removal all of the win-cons here it would take ALL THREE which is extremely unlikely. Then on top of that the first hit is usually on Sphinx's Revelation anyways making it still impossible to hit all of them. Better yet in a stroke of luck the opponent runs 4 thoughtseize and 4 SG's and pulls them all out of his/her ass sure that is 1 round, and even still they aren't developing their board state at all and maybe still you'll be able to resolve one of your threats anyways.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it is due to the issue of standard legality.

@Benny_boy777 It would be easier and faster, I think, to just do the devoted druid and quillspike combo. However this idea is brilliant in the fashion of giving that deck some more ideas to fill it out and have a second win con.

Very interesting mill idea. Even still though I feel like there is something missing.

I keep wanting to add a third color either green and go "BUG" or white and go "Esper"

The reasoning behind wanting that third color is it seems as though your creatures are weak.
--Consuming Aberration can get HUGE but(!) it can also die fairly easily if your opponent does something like rest in peace, or elixir of immortality. Something that effectively removes the graveyard can make a serious impact on your here.
--Mirko Vosk is only a 2/4 which can mean that he may very well die in the air to a number of blockers. This either supports the need for some kind of "buff" or more removal.
--Mortus Strider, while he isn't here to attack really I'm assuming, he is still a 1/1 which can mean that against decks with trample your going to lose on defense. Same thing as Mirko Voss, either buffs or more removal. *I am assuming the reason reason for this guy is Undercity Informer
--Undercity Informer, interesting, decent mill I suppose but really doesn't do much otherwise and I'm going to guarantee you'll lose the race of milling your opponent before you die to pretty much any deck

The only other card I don't particularly like here is the Dimir Charm. None of it's effects I think make it worth playing over either Negate or Doom Blade(or hero's downfall).


Now the reason I would go for BUG is Master Biomancer, he can be slow and your creatures need to come out after him however it would ensure the survival of your creatures in several cases. Then you could theoretically add in Prime Speaker Zegana which could be BRUTAL with Consuming Aberration.

Now Prime Speaker brings to attention something else, a need for draw. Your going to want something to keep you fueled up while going for a mill out strategy. You currently have no draw which means your likely to run dry before your opponent, with larger resolved threats, while your relying on having a ton of spells to cast to trigger Consuming Aberration, or just hoping they mill the opponent themselves such as breaking // entering. I think the draw you want is "Pilfered Plans" because it mills an opponent for two and you'll draw two cards.

While in Green you could also add Scavenging Ooze which would be really really interesting with the mill because in most match-ups you'll be able to mill over a ton of creatures for S.Ooze to eat gaining size and life for you.

With all of that said I think your up for a major revamp because slight editing of numbers is going to get to drawn out and complicated.
Here is my attempt at building the deck I think you could/should be aiming for: http://www.mtgvault.com/snakerunners/decks/theros-bug-mill/

While I didn't add Ashiok, it wasn't because I think she is bad it's just I think there were better cards for her slot in this deck. You could however disagree with some of my choices and add her back in by say -1 Zegana -1 Hero's Downfall +2 Ashiok. The land base isn't going to be perfect as I tend to make these decks as a quick representation of ideas instead of "solid finished builds" so you may need to tweak it a little. It shouldn't be terribly off as I focused on U/B and splashed the green and even still there is 10 green sources at least. This minimal splash does support removing Zegana possibly because she is a little color heavy however I think she makes a solid impact on the game. Mortus Strider and Undercity Informer are each just a little weak and their milling too slow. While this deck may still be a little on the slow side for milling I think it shows better staying power with larger creatures, some life gain etc.

Sideboard is just a representation of spells and such that I think could be useful not necessarily mainboard but in certain match-ups. Pithing Needle is a decent way to deal with a few cards such as ætherling, and planeswalkers. Fade into Antiquity is a good way to deal with the gods and elixir of immortality. Putrefy to deal with more creatures and if your think your going to be threatened by artifacts such as pithing needle, or again elixir.



If going BUG is too expensive or too risky here is a mix up on just straight U/B: http://www.mtgvault.com/snakerunners/decks/theros-ub-mill-control/

While ultimately I probabaly didn't make it much cheaper for you I think it might be a little easier and I really wanted to go with this idea of Duskmantle Seer and Thassa. Anyways what I was playing a here was trying to get into Thassa's Devotion, as a 5/5 on turn 3 or 4 is really solid. Mono-blue had some power for a reason and better yet so should you when you have some solid devotion and then also the addition of black for some power. Your still open to Hero's Downfall, Doom blade, Ashiok, pilfered plans, psychic strike, far // away, all of which are very solid options to have open to you that you need black for. The Thassa not only plays well in card advantage letting you scry away unnecessary cards but can also ensure minimal life loss from Duskmantle Seer but ultimately still gaining that card advantage while having a 4/4 flyer that can get in for decent damage. The other devotion creatures do some work of their own. Tidebinder can slow down some decks you need to and hit a few important creatures like boros reckoner, or even larger green creatures. Frostburn is almost like a wall for many faster decks with smaller creatures coming in sizes of 2/2, 2/3, 3/3 etc. and it can even come in on the back swing and deal decent damage, also again plays well into blue devotion.

Now ultimately your not only playing into the devotion for Thassa, though it is a solid reason to play into blue devotion, but also for Nykthos. Being able to gain that extra mana advantage could really push for a faster consuming aberration, or the real target a high X on mind grind. Imagine tidebinder, frostburn, nightveil out for turn 4 that is a mind grind for at least 6 plus whatever else your getting from nightveil and or consuming aberration. While I said Consuming Aberration is problematic when you don't have anyway to combat an elixir of immorality I think I'm down playing the aberration enough where it's not going to be as problematic for the deck if something goes wrong. Besides your going in for enough damage with other creatures like Duskmantle and Thassa to win without milling.

Something I just realized could make it in but I'm unsure of it's place is Bident of Thassa, it helps with devotion and can draw you cards which as aforementioned is important.



---Sidenote: I wanted to find room for nighthowler because it can be a powerhouse creature in a mill deck. I like it with the idea of Duskmantle seer however I'm just not convinced it plays well because you kind of really want thassa to help minimize the life loss and such from duskmantle and if your going to run thassa you want blue devotion and nighthowler impacts negatively on the deck then because you don't want to dwindle the blue devotion via the creatures you play or even to remove spells that help the deck out a ton. I'd come up with a random third idea but I'm just not 100% sure what it would be and why it would be better than either of the other two. If I go for Consuming Aberraton and Mirko Vosk and Nighthowler again I'm really playing into losing creatures via graveyard removal. BUG Rites or Junk Rites maybe with a creature heavy deck and self mill, Lotleth+Nighthowler discarding creatures to Lotleth pumping it for 2 each time. BUG you could do some mill with mirko vosk, or something and then whip of erebos Prime Speaker for a pseudo-sphinx's rev in BUG Rites. /shrug

I've gone on too long and I'm probably just given you as many questions as answers and therefore probably wasn't too helpful. Hope that isn't the case. Good luck with the deck.

Absolutely. This is more or less what I do, I'll pick a few decks or posts on here or reddit that are magic related and put in my "two cents" about it and usually end up kind of lengthy and in-depth posts. I spend probably too much time thinking about MTG and various decks what strengths they have and what weaknesses etc.

I understand the concern for double black. My main deck as of current is a B/W Midrange (won me game day) and even still in just 2 color I was having trouble a few times to balance double black and double whites. Even still the card is immensely powerful and there are times where you'll be kicking yourself if your holding sorcery speed removal vs instant speed.

Counterflux is a similar situation. Where double blue can be an issue but honestly the overload could really make the difference. I could see to Syncopates working out possibly but really keep an eye on there performance. Take some mental notes of how the card performed, was it countered, could opponents just pay their way out of it and then did you lose because of tempo loss due to them getting around that counter. AKA use it but really keep in mind other options you have (counterflux, dissolve, negate, cancel *not over dissolve though*).

ætherling as far as being problematic, you need to have at least 4 blue when you play him. PLEASE KEEP THAT IN MIND, I don't mean to question your skill as a player or anything but I'm making sure you don't have to learn the hard way if you haven't æetherling is best if you can play him out when you have 8 mana instead of 6, you want to keep up that extra two (blue) so you can exile him to dodge removal, and then the second is extra back-up in-case you have the issue of

Opp: "Doom blade ætherling"
You: "Exile in response"
Opp: "doom blade (2) in response to exile"

Now if you have that second blue
You "exile in response to doom blade (2)"

Or not--
You: "yeah you got him"


Anyways thank you for responded to and appreciating my feedback, I wish you the best of luck with the deck.

Bob Maher. There are a few cards that were designed by Pro Players that were supposed to be a representation of themselves or something like that. Anyways his card was Dark Confidant. There are other cards from this "set" I'm not sure how else to put it. http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Magic_Invitational

Sure, maybe sometime tomorrow or something. I've got homework and such to do before getting to sleep.

Yep, it's effectively a board wipe which can really slow down a few decks.

I'd prefer Anger of the Gods to Annihilating Fire