Panik8

Nice deck!

Have you considered "damage lands" like Barbarian Ring, Keldon Megalith or Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle? It's not much, but the extra damage they provide could make a big difference.

Considering Swords to Plowshares has the creature's owner gain life based on the creature's power (as opposed to its toughness), I don't think it works as part of "Group C"...?

You could replace it with Avenger en-Dal, Condemn or Exile.

Or just keep it, because Swords to Plowshares is still a great f---ing card!

Great deck idea, too.

Well, I wasn't really seeking deck suggestions, I mean, I appreciate the input, but I just wanted to know if they were so bad and I know they're definetly not tweaked for MP, which is my whole point for linking them (the first ones), and I agree that Isochron is always annoying, but then again, who doesn't run artifact removal, these days? Everything is annoying if you can't deal with it, and I can think of many things way worse than a Counter to couple with Isochron... ;) As for the last decks I linked, yeah, they're good examples of decks I'd expect to generate hate against me, but like I said, they're relic of the past I keep just for show.

And I completely agree with you guys, that a different format would work better, I have no clue why they're so bent on playing FFA when 2HD, Emperor and Pentagram all are formats that have proven to provide a better playing experience for MP games. But, they're not really open to the idea of being restricted in who they can attack. Then again, it's been so long, maybe they changed, I might bring MTG up next time we meet, and I'll try to keep your advice in mind :)

It does make sense that by playing duel decks in MP format, I'd make enemies early and get attacked, which still doesn't make much sense if it lets other people become monsters from being left alone too long, but I guess I understand their side of the coin better, now.

@Puschkin: I did all of that, from 'trading decks' to letting them win on purpose while trying not to make it so obvious. The latter worked to some extent, but wasn't anymore fun to me... Great suggestions, still, in the end, I went for the last and found less idiotic players. I even invited some of the old guys to play with our new group, figuring their little 'alliance' wouldn't stand if they weren't playing on their turf, or that, at least, I'd also have people to side with me. In the end, they never showed up, I guess they figured I'd be out for revenge or something, and truth be told, I was. We even had an Un-deck we were going to play just to mess with them (all in good fun), the intent being to turn the tables on them and see how they like not being able to play the game for 5 hours...

@BigGeorge: Yeah, I saw it earlier this week, looks like a fun little deck, I might consider something like it. Actually, my lack of a strong MP deck is probably what was most frustrating in all of this. I mean, it's hard to blame people for attacking me when that's pretty much the point of the game, but it really came to a point where no matter what I played, I felt like I wasn't even playing. I did search for cards with 'each opponent' and 'any time someone/anyone' (any keyword string I figured would lead me to great MP cards) and looked up tons of decks, cards and ideas, built myself a pretty decent 'paper deck', but then figured... Why bother, they'll just say I built another OP deck so I could beat them again. In any case, I have no interest playing them again, like I said, we're still good friends, and we agreed we'd better not play MTG together. In fact, some of the people I play with now, have also played with some of 'them' and also had issues.

Reading all your 'Rules' again, I think it's the rule 13 that is the most relevant here. I'm big on diplomacy, psychology and anything that has me running my mouth to get into my opponents' head. That's one thing I was notified they didn't like, but as was mentioned in my other posts, it's pretty obvious that they had their own little diplomacy going on against me.

One argument I already alluded to literally was about my friend using his Norritt+Royal combo to tap and kill everything (which isn't a problem in itself, although pretty annoying), and my argument was on his 'killing priority', since his GF had a Simic Manipulator on the board (1 counter away from stealing his Royal or Norritt permanently...), another guy had a Vitu-Gazi Guildmage (playing a token deck), and yet, he went for my Llanowar Elf... I try explaining how next turn, he'll start getting overwhelmed by 3/3 Centaurs and/or lose part of his combo to the Manipulator. Nothing gives, he starts being mad at me for trying to tell him how to play, trying to manipulate him to my advantage, while his GF is mad I 'tried' to pit her BF against her, and the Token Deck guy is mad I 'tried' to break his combo before it got out of hand. And obviously, since the Royal is only killing my shit, no one bothers killing the Royal either, but they have a counter for my removal, if I try to use any on it... End result, they gang up on me and I die while everyone else has 20 lives and no permanent in their GY... And I'm the jerk for not taking it with a smile, the Xth time around.

Anyhow, I'm over it, like I said, it's been years and we're still good friends outside the game, but many of your rules can work both ways, in some contexts. I mean, I had so much issues getting them to get the actual WRITTEN rules, I certainly wouldn't even try having them read this article and have to consider 'UNWRITTEN' rules, too.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great post you wrote (which led to interesting discussions, from what I've read above, too), just that some rules don't apply the same with everyone.

Edit: For the record, here are some decks I like to play in MP games (you might notice I like tribal)...

http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/legendary-shogunate/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/krenkos-mob/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/grave-goblins/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/isochronic-simic/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/dark-elves-of-the-frost-2/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/ferocious-artifacts/ (my current deck)

...and some I'd never play (at least, not in their current form)...

http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/wizards-of-the-draw/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/food-chain-goblins/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/elvish-symbiosis/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/discard-to-win/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/cuntroll/
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/suicide-circle/

...if there's anything you think doesn't abide by your rules (from the first group, obviously), please do let me know (some sideboards have 20 cards, since sleeve packs often come by packs of 80..., disregard that, but do notice how some decks have the best cards sideboarded, ie.: toned down). The second group is there to show how/what I figure are decks I own that aren't fun to play against (or to play at all, for me).

First of all, thanks for reading my wall of text and for your reply. (Here's your 2nd test...!)

For the first point, I think we'll agree that as long as everyone around the table agree to 'some' 'rules', everyone can have fun. Problem here is that with some people, as soon as I talk about format or budget or rules, I automatically become 'that guy'. I get that they're 'casual' and that they don't care about rules, but considering the next points, it's simply absurd. There are rules to every game, for a reason.

As far as deck cost is concerned, you're perfectly right that anyone can build a very decent deck on a budget, Northern proves it every time he posts a deck from his 'budget' series. Kudos to him and everyone else who contribute to this site. But that's what I was getting at. I have a few decks that are 'Vintage Competitive', decks that are worth well over 100$. Decks that aren't anymore fun to play against than they are for me to play. I'm thinking Food Chain Goblin or Tribal Elf, 2 decks that can see my entire library on the board on turn 3. I love those decks, but they're just trophies and I never play them, unless I'm asked to. Problem is, a particular person (the one I referred to as the 'alpha male' of that group), who is the organizer of the games for his circle of friends, and among my best friends IRL (unless MTG is concerned, really, then we're like fire & ice...), and he literally makes it a point to warn everyone about how good I am and how expensive my decks are. Thing is, he's thinking about the aforementioned decks, which I didn't even bring, a fact I make sure to mention and repeat. Still, as was mentioned earlier, he'll Demonic Tutor on T2, to fetch a Terror so he can kill a 1/1 Squirrel token of mine on T3, while he lets other players build up their forces. Then, as I'm open, everyone burns me, and I get to be a spectator. Now, this is sound strategy, weaken the strongest opponent so everyone can gang up on him, but remember I'm not playing an overpowered deck, he's just so butthurt he can't beat me 1v1 (even when he plays any of MY decks and I play any of HIS...) that he influences his pals to rape me, and if I say anything about it (you know, after the 4th time around, after 3 hours of watching them), I become 'that guy' again.

The third point was pretty much resumed above. I don't have a problem with them (I rarely have a problem with anyone) as much as 'they' seem to have a problem with me. My decks aren't better than theirs, as much as I happen to understand the meta game better than 'they' do (it's all about one guy, really, the others are just messing with me because he tells them too, afaik, although when voices get louder, everyone gets involved, and in the long run, they decided I was 'that guy', which I have no problem living with, as I have other friends who are on my level I play with and have tons of fun with). Heck, I know every card in my buddy's 'main' deck... Demonic Tutor, Royal Assassin, Norrit, Nightmare, Sengir Vampire, Terror, Dark Ritual, Dark Banishing, Will'o'the'Wisp, 4 of each, with lands (and I'm pretty sure he had an XB direct damage spell, but it wasn't Consume Spirit, drawing a blank atm...). With that deck, you have a chance at beating pretty much anyone and you're sure to have very decent control over the board of any game, duel or MP. I don't say a word about his banned Demonic Tutors, yet, if and when I beat him in a duel, he thinks it's because my 20$ budget deck I'm playing for the first time to test out is OP (when it's really because I know what he's playing and 'sideboard' accordingly), so when we play MP, he figures the deck I just beat him with will hold its ground in a 4 or 5 man FFA... Heck, he even plays a 'vintage' affinity deck with tinkers and artifact lands..., if anything, I should be the one invoking rule 2, but no, I'm 'that guy', because his buddies always side with him. >.<

Either way, we all have plenty of decks, so as far as deck quality/worth is concerned, it varies between games, but the last few times I played there, I was playing standard budget decks I had just built and wanted to test out, while everyone else was playing casual (no format, no rules, except not more than 4x of any unique card...). For that matter, I built most of their decks... And if I didn't build it, I probably was asked to check it out to see if I could think of something to make it better, which obviously also let's me figure how each of their deck can be beaten, but that's pretty irrelevant since none of my card can stick to the board for more than 1 turn, anyway.

As far as experience is concerned, I'm pretty much the newest guy, I learned the game about 10-12 years ago, while they all played it in high school, ~15 years ago. As I was the new guy, I actually downloaded and printed the entire rules for reference, I looked up cards I played on Gatherer for rulings and legality, to make sure I knew my shit, I read articles, consulted countless lists of decks, etc... I probably went overboard, but then again, I guess I'm 'that guy'... Anyhow, as I mentioned in my original post, if I try to let someone know he's doing a bad move (the kind of move you'd note with a big fat '?', in chess), I become 'that guy' again. So I can't help them get better. If I suggest we use a 'combat token' so the same guy (me) can't be attacked by everyone, every turn, I'm 'that guy' again.

I've tried toning down, playing budget, shutting up the entire night (again, they didn't like it...), being sober, being drunk, being high, smiling, having a poker face, etc... As soon as someone has removal, and I have anything on the board, I'm the target. I should really be using the past tense, since I haven't played those guys in years, and as was mentioned, I made other friends I can play with and have tons of fun, but this 'deck' (article/blog) struck a nerve, I guess, and opened old wounds or something, and reminded me of how painful it is to play against people who 'only' want to have fun, with little regards for the spirit of the game.

I know how pretentious both of my posts make me sound (and I'll admit to a mild obsessive/compulsive disorder...), but if I was really 'that guy', I figure I would have the same issues with other groups, which isn't the case. Heck, when they talked about buying a box of boosters of a new series, I mentioned having a draft tournament (as opposed to simply opening each booster) and, you guessed it, I was 'that guy' again.

In the end, we decided to simply stop playing together and remain friends, and it's probably better that way. Some people are just too casual for me, I guess, just like they'd say people like me are too serious for them, I figure.

Cheers. It feels good just to get it off my chest... ;P

Edit: Oh, and for the record, as far as rule #2 is concerned, I don't ever play infinite combos in MP (even my 'good' decks I only play if requested, if people want to try to team up against me, which is probably why they all want revenge when I play 'normal' decks...). The only such combo I have that I can think of, is an Umbral Mantle which can give infinite mana when equipped on an Elvish Archdruid, to pump up an infinite Joraga Warcaller, but I never used it, and when I play that deck for fun, I swap the Mantles out... I only put them in if I'm playing another 'infinite combo' deck, in a duel.

This reminds me of everything that's wrong with multiplayer MTG. Everyone ends up getting butthurt and any sore loser can claim he only lost because the winner's deck cost more to build than his. Rule #2. BS. Gamebreaking cards are a big NO-NO, but then, mass removal is cool, no infinite combo, but having 1k+ life is cool... WTF. Really? This comes from a player who has about 20 competitive Vintage decks and countless modern decks. I have a reputation, and a collection worth near $10k, collected over a few decades. People attack me first in MP games not because they hate me, but because they fear me, because they know they can't beat me 1v1, so they assume my decks will work as good in MP, which is NOT the case. And it's so annoying. A 4 player game always ends up being 3v1, never 1v1v1v1. And if I dare mention the fact that killing my 1/1 fodder token is dumb when there's a Simic Manipulator on the board, I get called out by a retard who thinks I'm running an imbalanced deck when I'm playing a standard deck worth $20 and he's running a vintage mono black deck with 4x Demonic Tutor, along with quad Norrits and Royal Asses, but still manages to lose every game he plays against my creature based decks, because I know how to sideboard, and he just plays every card he has, as soon as he can, every single game, despite losing to the same card 10x in a row (and trust me, I tried to teach him...). And according to rule 10, I should let it go and not argue about rules, only that other guy thinks activated abilities are the same as spells being cast, so he's trying to counter my Llanowar Elf tapping for mana... Do I help him become a better player by developing a better understanding of the game? Of course not, if I do, I'm the bad guy, breaking everyone's balls with my pedantic crap... Don't get me wrong, with time, I've found good friends I could play MTG with, without it always ending badly, but fuck those rules, there's only one rule and it's that everyone should be having fun. If my fun is to be fucking pedantic about rules, then why the fuck should I ignore someone's ignorance for the sake of letting him have fun while I'm pulling my hair off my head? No way, Jose. I'd rather play alone than play it wrong, and I found people who thought alike. Some of my best friends play MTG, but I don't play with them, because they don't even understand what 'format' means, and the 'alpha male' in the group is a stubborn fuck who'd rather play it wrong than concede that I might know more about the game than he does. Bottom line is that everyone knows what being a jerk means, just don't do it. If I'm going to test a deck with a crazy combo or whatever, I let people know what I'm up to, if they'd rather play tribal/creature, then they just have to say so and I'll play another deck. Obviously, most of my rant should be taken with a grain of salt, but, to this day, there are people who refuse to play with/against me, and I never really understood why. Sure, I can be pedantic and annoying, but if that's how I'm having fun, how is it any worse than that guy who's having fun despite not playing priority right and not understanding how the stack works? Is MP MTG supposed to be a "no child left behind" kind of game, so dumbed down that it gets boring to the point where people who really love the game for what it is (was?) don't even want to play it anymore?

Sorry about the wall of text, but this seemed like the right place to vent...

tl;dr: This game was meant for duels.

In any case, if you're going to play MP, make sure you play with people who are on the same level as you, otherwise, it always ends up being painful.

Great deck!

Here's my take, actually a variation of my current standard (M15+) deck, along with some cards being released next week.

http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/standard-ur-aristocrat/

Standard, Budget, Aristocrat.

I really liked your idea, so I played with it some more, here's what I came up with...
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/kurkeshs-doom-engine/

I like it! Here's a couple suggestions, see if you think they'd work for your deck.
I'd consider, Bow of Nylea; more artifacts to sac, pretty versatile.
Maybe Trading Post; seems it would have good synergy with this deck.
In SB, I'd have Destructive Revelry over Fade into Antiquity; I'm thinking avoid "Exile" just so you can cast on your own Doom Engine.
Finally, how about Signal the Clans, to fetch Shandalar or the Doom Engine?

Wouldn't Quest for the Nihil Stone or Nezumi Shortfang be better options for Shrieking Affliction? Also, have you considered cards like Geth's Grimoire, Liliana's Specter and Megrim?

My pleasure!

Yeah, he costs a lot of mana.

To be honest, he belongs in the sideboard more than main deck. Most decks that have enough removal to make him worthwhile can just as simply get rid of him. It is only really good if you play against a tribal deck, or anything with tons of creatures and/or tokens, in my opinion. Then again, if you play some Path of Exiles, or Sword to Plowshares, you can kill your own creatures (for life or land) and bring them back.

Also, have you considered...
-Isamaru, Hound of Konda (nice Legendary 1-drop, but otherwise nothing special)
-Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (a late-game powerhouse, turn extra mana into protection from anything)
-Masako the Humorless (another great Legendary creature, in my opinion, "Vigilance" for everything)
-Eiganjo Castle (it's a Plains, only better..., just hope you don't draw 2 in opening hand... :P)

I'm not sure they'd serve much purpose in your deck, but with Heroes' Podium in the deck, I'd try to get rid of every non-Legendary creature, unless they're mandatory for something.

I like the idea, reminds me of my Samurai deck, which is where all my suggestions come from, too. Might as well check it out, before I just list every card in it... LOL.

http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/legendary-shogunate/

Oh, and I personally would run more removal, a couple Oblivion Rings or Banishing Lights, or anything similar. Or Glare of Heresy, in a combo with Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, if you decide to run that. Or Path to Exile, Sunlance, Swords to Plowshares, etc... Or maybe Selesnya charm?

Last suggestions... You might want some Ranger's Guile, or Rebuff the Wicked, to protect your creatures.

Those are only suggestions, you obviously can't follow all of them without literally destroying your deck. I don't expect you to do that, I'm just listing cards I personally play, which your deck reminded me of. See what you think would work for you, and against people you expect to play against...

Cheers!

Yomiji, Who Bars the Way?

Another one, inspired by Plants vs Zombies!
http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/garden-warfare/

*cough* Budget? Not to be nitpicky, but you're like 4x over with that deck, although that's pretty much only because of the lands. Playing 5-color on a budget is pretty slow, so I can't really blame you. Still, I'd "sideboard" your current lands and try to come up with a budget-ish alternative for this challenge. Odyssey dual lands lands are pretty cheap (but not Modern...), while stuff like Pentad Prism fixes a lot of mana problems and can even "ramp" it up. (ie. It enables T3 Legion (or Overlord, in the case of my Sliver deck), which can be pretty annoying, for opponents.)

Otherwise, it looks like a pretty solid deck.

Not really, I think you've seen my Caress/Megrim deck... Maybe some Liliana's Specter, opponents discard, and you'd get a flying creature to block with... I really like Painful Quandary, just looked at it again, I need that! :)

Nice deck, I like it!

Well, I can't speak for others, but I started playing Magic during Onslaught. So, as far as I'm concerned, nostalgia is a big part in my passion for Tribal.

Let's face it, even before Onslaught/Tribal, it didn't take a genius to take a hint and match cards with obvious synergy. In fact, I think I still remember my friends' mono-black deck down to each card he played and I haven't played him in a decade.

Norrit, Royal Ass, Hypno Specter, Sengir Vamp, Nightmare, Terror, Dark Ritual, Tourach, Duress, Drain Life and Swamps. I think all the cards in his deck were pre-Onslaught, too. Yet, you'll notice how it looks and feels like a Tribal deck, AND a deck meant to battle Tribal decks, with all the creature removal it has...

Re-posting my decks from the other discussion.

Red, Goblins, Tokens - http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/krenkos-mob/
Green, Elves, Druids - http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/renegade-elvish-druids/
Blue, Wizards, Draw - http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/wizards-of-the-draw/
White, Samurai, Legendary - http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/legendary-shogunate/
Black/Red, Goblins, Graveyard - http://www.mtgvault.com/panik8/decks/grave-goblins/

I used a theme for each deck, as well as a Tribe, in order to keep things somewhat original, despite Goblins, Elves and Wizards being among the most popular tribes in the history of MTG.