TheSwarmer

The 1 extra mana on [[Crackling Drake]] is *steep*. I fully second [[Become Immense]] tho, even as [[Nivmagus Elemental]] doesn't like it.

The former seems like a sideboard card. As for the latter, do you think it's better than Kiln Fiend? But damn, I so wish Storm Entity appeared in lists every now and then.

Man, enough with the prowler xD Bridge is a great card in 8rack where your primary win conditions do not rely on attacking, this deck however does want to attack, and in my mind the cost of running prowler is incredibly higher than the benefit it would provide to a BW samllpox deck with bridges.

1. It is horrible with spirit by being a creature, even now, running 2 Cling to Dust and 3 creatures, 1 of which can only enter the graveyard by being discarded, it happens a non-negligible amount of time that 2 creatures get stranded in the yard without a Cling in sight, adding more creatures to this is not a good idea.
3. Who would ever trade a card for 2 life against a slow deck? Hell, even against burn, you don't often see people valuing 2 life as highly as a card.
4. When facing ultra fast aggro there's 4 sideboard cards, chump blockers from Bitterblossom, Smallox and 11 other pieces of removal, and plenty of lifegain. Bridge is a great card, yes, but not in this deck.
5. When would I need to cling to dust so bad that exiling 1 card would be worth 4 mana and say discarding... 2? 3? If the deck is really graveyard focused (think dredge), then 1 card means very little, if it is [[Past in Flames]] that I am exiling, then on turn 2 I'd have known it's storm I'm playing and I'd have saved Cling. This point is entirely mute.

The other points are fair but not in line with what the deck is trying to do. Tell you what, have a crack at a Prowler Bridge BW pox deck, I'd be eager to see what that list would look like since I personally cannot imagine it working, certainly not working more consistently than this ; which is already more clunky and ergo less good than Orzhov Stoneforge.

There doesn't seem much use in dwelling on lists from Eldrazi Winter. Graveyard hate was at an all time low, resulting in slow graveyard-reliant decks with a decent matchup spread actually being playable and performing well. But it is the Eldrazi Winter no more, [[Faithless Looting]] is banned, and Modern Loam pox (if it can be argued to even so much as exist) now looks nothing like what it did back then.

The issue is that no one plays Loam Pox in modern, there's nothing to compare to. People used play a decent bit of 4 color Loam Pox before [[Faithless Looting]] got banned. But since [[Nether Spirit]] became legal in modern no one has really built, let alone placed with a deck like this. There is one similar list on TappedOut and there's also a few YouTube gameplay videos of similar decks but they are a lot more focused on [[Zombie Infestation]] or [[Knight of the Reliquary]].

I agree as far as Akuta is concerned, the haste and the ability to block are good yes, but the narrow range of scenarios in which I can see myself being happy to recur Akuta kills the idea pretty convincingly.

Never // Return came to mind because it can exile extra creatures should a Nether Spirit get stranded in the graveyard. And as for Rider, milling it over seems like a real possibility that could hinder Spirit unless Cling to Dust is being run. All in all, the idea of running multiple creatures a non-zero number of which are Nether Spirit seems like something that could be either vindicated or eviscerated by some mathematical analysis (at least to some degree). Something to look into in the future.

Thanks a lot for the input, I think you sold me on [[Bitterblossom]], especially seeing as how it is a threat that does not rely in any way on the graveyard and goes wide unlike the spirit.
What's your view on [[Akuta, Born of Ash]], and [[Never // Return]] ?

Hmm, edge can keep them at virtually 2 lands if I happen to draw algae, and cards that are 2 mana or less should be easy to deal with for the entire duration of the game, but I get your point, though if I were to replace edge I'd go for [[Ghost quarter]] however. Unless... isn't it the case that algae checks for state change? Does enchanting a tapped land really kill it outright?

I think an optimal version of this deck would run field of ruin at least as a one-of, but that would require more basics maindeck, which would require a more expensive manabase and likely fetch lands too.

Why? [[Tectonic edge]] is actual land destruction whereas [[Field of ruin]] is not, plus [[Spreading Algae]] makes edge substantially better than field.

Oh yeah, that's why [[Krosan Grip]] is the niche A/E removal of choice, though I may just be paranoid and it may be stupid to run it, hell, that may well have been the case since Twin got banned.

Oh hey, it's you, I found myself admiring your Pox lists a few years ago. I myself have played little Legacy Pox, only games I managed to get in with proxies in a very stale metagame 3 or so years ago. Though I am an 8-rack veteran, whatever that's worth xD.

[[Cling to dust]] was originally in here, as a 2 of in fact, specifically because I thought running 2x [[Nether Spirit]] would be best and because every aspect of the card is useful; the lifegain against the worst matchups, the cantrip in late-game stalemates, the possibility to disrupt Uro and [[Snapcaster Mage]] decks. I eventually cut it for planeswalkers and [[Worm Harvest]] as the deck is very low on win conditions.

My concern with [[bitterblossom]] is just how slow the deck is and just how susceptible to fast and direct damage strategies. But it may be something to look into. More generally, there are many directions in which one can go with threats in a build like this, what you are suggesting is an option I considered, especially [[Murderous Rider]], though figuring out how/if it is possible to keep playing [[Nether Spirit]] with riders in the deck seemed hellish and I don't currently have the time.

Damn, you're the first person I ever met to be on-board with the [[Spreading Algae]] plan. My concern is that the card does less than nothing when you do not have an [[Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth]]. I've considered running [[traverse the ulvenwald]] to make the synergy more consistent in strangling manabases but it seemed too clunky and even more draw and matchup dependent. 4x [[Barren Moor]] might be too much, especially side by side with manlands that come in tapped, but I want to have a decent-sized data-set before I decide whether 4 Moors causes too many intolerable losses of tempo.

The more I draw sample hands the more I think you are right about the removal, I mean, Lilianas and Vraska are all removal, except they are rather slow and solely sorcery speed. I genuinely did not even know [[Nissa of Shadowed Boughs]] was a card xD Though running her would indeed require a large restructuring of the deck.

Lastly, as for [[Vraska, Golgari Queen]], I've no clue if she's good or not, I have some trepidations about running her but I am nonetheless eager to test her. Oh yeah, and splashes are impossible for me for budget reasons, otherwise all remaining colors would be something to look into and test and fetches would be present even in this 2 color list.

I guess I have a few questions about what you'd think would be the best approaches to refining this. If I were adamant about running [[Nether Spirit]] for reasons that may or may not have something to do with an unhealthy obsession with the card, what changes would it be best to make? And if I were willing to not run [[Nether Spirit]], what would you recommend then in way of changes?

While I agree that recursion should refer to Gravecrawlers and Recurring Nightmares, arguing that a change in nomenclature killed a mechanic is nothing short of asinine. If something is good, if it works, if it wins people will keep doing it, irrespective of whether it's called recursion, reshuffling, or if there is no agreed upon terminology.

Furthermore, would you say that both Dread's trigger and the use of Recurring Nightmare fall under recursion? Because that seems unhelpful, reshuffling seems to me the best word to refer to Dread-like triggers.

I mean, fair enough, but both [[Into the Story]] and [[Drown in the Loch]] got substantially worse after Theros came out.

I've never seen a single deck use this in modern outside of SB techs to beat mill as well as fringe gaea's blessing decks. I'd assume the reason for this is that the cost of running a crap card is higher than the benefit of the reshuffle effect. And [[Wheel of Fortune]] and [[Timetwister]] are almost indescribably more powerful than [[Dread]]. If someone does the math, I'll be convinced, until then I'll trust the playerbase hivemind conclusion.

[[stream of thought]] doesn't affect the boardstate in any way, but besides that this deck is not really viable anymore since Escape became a thing. Or at least it is not worth spending the money on as compared to other decks.

Given 8 racks and well... 1 spirit, plus 4 manlands, the deck plans to win or lose aeons before multiple [[Dread]] reshuffles can take place and before milling is anyone's concern. That there is value in your suggestions is undeniable, but the value is not enough to act upon any of them. I'll build a statue in your honor if some day math proves you're right about [[Dread]], until then I can't see how running a card that does not further the deck's gameplan in the least is a good idea.

Yeah, 2 [[Cling to Dust]] are in here to help against escape cards (among other things), the sideboard choice of 4 Leyline is something that can be easily swapped for Surgicals and Spellbombs if decks like Dredge are of less concern than are say 4C Uro decks.

Limited though my opponent's lands may be, and unlimited though [[Dread]] might make mine, the deck plans to win through damage, not resource denial. Though it is changing a lot these days and may eventually have enough cards to play more like its big legacy cousin.

As per manabases and bloodmoons: For one, I need double black at most, for another, if I surmise that winning a particular game depends on resolving a Liliana (having double black) I can just make them discard the moon.

Do you actually mean the card Drad? This deck discards and sacs its own lands, how would dread ever be resolved? And as for making use of its shuffle trigger, what in the hell for? Raven's crime means lands aren't dead draws, reshuffling would likely keep the Spell - Land ratio in the deck the same as the graveyard will (at most times) have a bunch of lands in it, and Dread is a dead draw - I'd rather discard something with madness or flashback or a Nether Spirit. Plus Cling to Dust seems to me a much more valuable asset than does Dread, same with Nether Spirit.

Haha, a pox addict meets a mill addict, what's with you and shuffle-gy-into-library triggers xD Bridge is good indeed, not worth playing horrible (extremely situational / anti-synergistic) cards but quite good. What I wanna do here is explore (albeit tentatively) new ground. Value is easy to come by in modern these days and balls to the wall turbo discard doesn't work great anymore.

Bojuka's entering tapped is too high a cost in this deck.
Drown in Sorrow seems like a more restricted version of Bontu's
Doomfall... Might be worth testing, but back when it came out the forums and FB groups were rife with people who tested it and came back disappointed.

And it keeps on happening my dude, at one point all comments on here were between -3 and -6. Had to make 3 new accounts to fight the asshole.

Bloody hell, can't believe I forgot about that card. I'll add it to the 1v1 version (sideboard).

I love how the high end price for [[Hardened Scales]] is 10 000$ xD