Asturonethorius

Ok think I found a fix to the only 2 Brimstone Volley problem. Cut 1 Mayor (making 7 non Spirit guide 2,3 cmc creatures, compared to 8 4,5,6 cmc creatures, and if count the 3 cmc spirit guides, then 10, 3 cmc creatures, compared to 8, 4,5,6 cmc creatures, so because of that should still get turns 1,2,3, 2,3,4 cmc creature drops consistently), leaving 2 Mayor's left, 21 creatures left, to go to 3 Brimstone Volley's, instead of just 2 of them, when need 3 of them.

And deck can either be run at 60 cards, 22 lands, or 61 cards, 23 lands.

Ok, the deck is pretty much done. Can either go with deck as 61 cards, 23 lands, 2 Brimstone Volley, a 37.7% land, mana ratio, or instead go with 63 cards, 24 lands, a 38.09% land mana ratio, 3 Brimstone Volley's, instead of 2 of them.

Not open to making Whole Sale, LOTS of changes. Am open to comments, suggestions, advice, recommendations on making very slight tweaks to deck.

The deck is such a stupidly, rediculously, awesome, amazing deck.

Can't believe deck only has 4 likes, when it should have at least 6 to 11 likes at the extreme least, when Foolish Deck Builder who has 1 of the highest reputations at 200+, and has built hotpage decks, says this deck is amazing, should be liked more.

I mean what's wrong with the 170 + who have viewed deck, but haven't liked this deck. This deck plays better than the 550 werewolf decks on this site. Because of that this deck should be rated, liked as 1 of the highest rated, liked werewolf decks, on this site.

This is freaking rediculous. I take the time, effort to make 1 of the best, if not the best Werewolf deck on this site, and it only gets 4 likes.

Just don't get it, some players here

After play testing, doing 100 to 200 sample hands on the sample hand thing, the deck works so stupidly, rediculously, awesomely well., about 73% to 83% to 93% of the time, which is pretty CONSISTENT. The only times it doesn't work well, is if get mana flooded, 5,6,7 lands in opening hand, or no land, 1 land, only 2 lands that are bad, in opening hand, or draw nothing but land turn after turn, or draw no land turn after turn, or get red cards, green, black mana, or black cards, red, green mana, or all mana creatures, no land destruction cards (very hard to do with 25 land destruction cards, but still happens).

The deck is pretty much done. Though not open to wholesale, lots of changes, I am open to logical comments, suggestions, making slight tweaks, changes

This deck is so awesome. You can make a BUDGET version of it for about $63 to $125, if take out all the EXPENSIVE LANDS, which is buildable, doable, affordable, within 1,2,3 months, at $20 to $40 a month, if budget, save for it, trade for needed cards, etc.

Can't believe this deck only has 2 likes, as it should have at least 6 to 11 likes here at the least. Especially since this deck is a better, improved upon, tweaked, retooling, etc, of a land destruction deck of mine that got 39 likes, + 1's, at other magic the gathering sites, and was 1 of the top rated Land Destruction decks on those other sites, on the net.

Ok, so added 3 Simian Spirit Guides, cut 1 Huntmaster, went to 63 cards, 24 lands. I know going to 63 cards, 24 lands unconventional, but it's worth it for the Simian Spirit Guides.

With 3 birds, 3 Spirit Guides as ramp, Bandit, Mayor, Immerwolf, Huntmaster will come out turns 1, 2, 3. That is stupidly BROKEN, SICK, AWESOME.

Turn 1: Land, Remove 2 Spirit Guides, play Bandit 3/2 with haste, hit foe for 3

Turn 2: Land, Moonmist, flip Bandit, 4/3, hit for 4 or kill blocker.

Can easily get out Huntmaster turn 2. Can easily get out Silverheart, Ulrich turns 2,3, can easily get out Progenitor Mimic, turns 3,4

So because of that going to 63 cards, 24 lands worth it.

Any suggestion for mana, land base to make it so that consistently get green mana for Birds turn 1, while getting Red Mana for Stone Rain, Molten Rain, turn 2, and black mana for Rain of tears on turn 2, and black mana for Wrecking Ball turn 3?

Ok, changed the Llanowar Elves into Spirit Guides. Changed the 1 Tyrant, 1 World Breaker, 1 Karn, to make Charmbreaker Win Con, and to add 3, 3 cmc Rain of Tears land destruction cards to make turns 1, 2,3 land destruction even more consistent.

Changed lands, mana for 9 black costing mana symbols, 6 black cards in 3 Wrecking Ball, 3 Rain of Tears

Hey Dedwards your suggestion about the Spirit Guides, altho still to many pieces, not enough deck slots, with, for Spirit Guide, Birds, Boom/Bust, fetch lands, and altho to many hoops to jump thru, not enough consistency, with, for all that, are still better ramp than the Llanowar Elves, so thanks for the suggestion.

The spirit guides as a replacement for the elves, do help the 3 cmc land destruction cards to come out on turns 1,2,3 somewhere between semi consistently to consistently, between some to most of the time, about somewhere between about 63% to about 93% of the time.

So while you suggesting the Spirit Guides were, was intended to go with your Boom/Bust suggestion, the spirit guides still work well without the Boom/bust in deck. Boom/Bust is still not a good fit in deck, just not enough room for 2,3 Boom/bust, and too many pieces, hoops to jump thru, fetch lands needed, etc, for Boom/bust

I am familiar with that build. I have done the liquid Metal Coating land destruction deck, but without Myr Landshaper, and with Hoard Smelter Dragon. I have also done a combination, where mixed variants of this deck, with Liquid Metal Coating, Hoard Smelter deck.

In it, the problems I always had, was consistency. If you run 4 liquid Metals, you drew too many. If you ran 2,3 you didn't get the early enough consistently enough. Also ran into the same problem as with Boom/Bust. In order to destroy land turn 2 with Liquid Metal Coating, you had to run Mox Opals, Memnites, infernal Plunge, Spirit Guide, HELP, etc. Or you had to run 3 Liquid Metal Coating, 3 Crush, and then play Liquid Metal Coating on turn 2, then turn land into artifact, then play Crush on turn 2 destroying the land that turned into a artifact on turn 2.

And you had to run like 10+ artifact destruction cards with Liquid Metal Coating, and about 10 to 13+ non artifact destruction cards, that land destruction cards like stone rain.

The problem was having to many parts, pieces, jumping thru so many hoops with Liquid Metal Coating to make it work on turn 2,3 consistently.

What ended up happening, is that often Liquid Metal Coating didn't come out, and then stuck with Crush, Ancient Grudge, Hoard Smelter, other artifact destruction, etc, in hand, with no way to destroy land, creatures, planeswalkers, enchantments, and only able to destroy artifacts.

The deck worked so awesome when it turned on. But it just wasn't consistent enough

The reason why this is a better build then Liquid Metal Coating, is that altho in both this deck, and Liquid Metal Coating, you need your 1 cmc Bird, Elf to come out turn 1, you don't have yo draw a liquid metal coating, or a specific land destruction card in this deck

All you have to do in this deck, is play a bird, or a elf turn 1, to draw, play any 1 of 8, 3 cmc land destruction cards on turn 2. And Even If You Dont Play A Turn 1 bird, elf, You Can Still Play Any 1 Of 8 , 3 Cmc Land Destruction Cards On Turn 3, And Even If You Play A bird, Elf On Turn 1, And Dont Play A Land Destruction Card On Turn 2, Then You Can Play Any 1 Of 17, 3 And 4 Cmc Land Destruction Cards On Turn 3, With No other card, liquid Metal Coating required, etc.

And there is plenty enough land destruction cards, creatures, etc, that also destroy creatures, artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers, lands, your choice which, an or all at the same time, which doesn't require a Liquid Metal Coating.

All of that is more consistent then Liquid Metal Coating. I have tried it both ways, and the non Liquid Metal Coating way is more consistent, tho when Liquid Metal Coating turns on, it's better. It just doesn't turn on as consistently.

CONSISTENCY is what is wanted, needed. The more parts, pieces, hoops that have to jump thru, combos, etc, needed, the more INCONSISTENCY there will be.

That is the problem with Liquid Metal Coating. To make it work, you have to tie up at least 3 deck slots for Liquid Metal, then tie up even more deck slots with mox opals, memnites, infernal plunges, spirit guides, crush, ancient grudge, 10 artifact destruction cards, that only work to destroy land if Liquid Metal is out.

That's a heck of a LOT of slots that you are tying up, so that instead of 19 to 27 land destruction cards, you only have 9 to 11 artifact destruction cards, and only 9 to 11 non artifact destruction cards, that destroy land, which I not enough to destroy land consistently on turns 2,3,4, to consistently destroy land period.

With that, you either get out a Liquid Metal coating, but don't draw a card with it yo destroy a land on turns 2,3,4 consustently, or you do draw the destruction cards, but don't draw Liquid Metal Coating consistently enough to destroy land on turns 2,3,4 consistently.

Rather then trying to run Liquid Metal Coating, tying up lots of slots with cards to help Liquid Metal Coating, your better off running at least 18 to 27 land destruction cards, so that you can consistently start destroying lands on turns 2,3,4, then keep it up, thru mid to late turns into the mid game, late game stages of the game.

With this deck, you consistently won't run out of land destruction steam, like you will with Liquid metal Coating, with this deck, you won't consistently have problems getting land destruction started, like you will with Liquid Metal Coating.

Yes there will be that rare game, where land destruction not come out turns 2,3,4, but that is rare. It wasn't as rare with Liquid Metal Coating.

Me, others tried extremely hard to make Liquid Metal Coating land destruction work a lot more consistently, and couldn't get liquid Metal Coating land destruction to work more consistently.

Believe me, if there was a way to get Liquid Metal Coating Land destruction to run more consistently, me, others would be running it more.

Looked up Simian Spirit Guide. The problem with using Spirit Guide, and Boom, or Boom period, is that Boom is having yo have help, whether it be a Bird, Elf, Spirit Guide, to get out Boom on turn 2. The point of putting Boom in deck would be to be able to cast it out, on turn 2 with NO HELP, for its 2 cmc cost, using 2 mana that have available on turn 2, in case your not able to cast a bird, elf turn 1, then cast either 1 of 4, 3 cmc stone rain, an or 1 of 4, 3 Cmc Molten on turn 2.

That's would be the goal, purpose of putting the Boom in the deck.

Using Simian Spirit Guide, to help Boom come out on turn 2 is like using Bird, Elf to get Boom out on turn 2. The problem is What if you don't get a bird, a elf, a spirit guide? Answer no Boom out turn 2. The point of putting Boom in deck would be to:

TURN 1: Land, no bird, no elf, no spirit guide in hand, pass turn.

TURN 2: Land, no Spirit Guide in hand, no bird, no elf, no guide first 2 turns, cast play Boom, on, during turn 2, have it only hurt your opponent, not you.

That is NOT possible to do. And if that is not possible to do, then Boom does not belong in deck.

The other problem with running either Spirit Guide, or Mox Opal, or Memnites, or infernal plunge, Boom/Bust, etc, is all the deck slots, hoops you have to jump thru.

It's hard enough to find room for Boom/Bust, in addition to Molten, Stone Rain, Roiling Terrain, Wreak Havoc, Wrecking Ball, etc. Now add in 2,3 spirit guide. There isn't room. What cut? Not Slime, which destroys artifact, enchant, land 2/2 deathtoucher, can be used by Mimic vat. Not Avalanche Rider same as Slime but 4 cmc, instead of 5 cmc, an except no destroy artifact, Enchant. Not birds, elves, ramp. Not Brutalizer Exarch, destroys like bamblecrush on a 3/3 creature stick, that tutors, searches for creatures, for 6 cmc. Not 6 cmc Charmbreaker, 4/4, that let's me reuse land destruction cards from graveyard, pumped by casting instant sorceries +4 bonus each time cast instant, sorcery. Not Tyrant, World Breaker, Karn, that finish game, destroy stuff including land. Not Molten, not stone rain, not wreak havok, not wrecking ball. Not Mimic Vat that spits out copies that destroy land, other stuff, when said copies come into play.

There literally no room for all the stuff, that would be needed to help Boom come out turn 2.

And even if there were room, it would mess up the consistency, with which land destruction comes out

Also if don't get spirit guide in opening hand, then what do later when you get them later. They are useless. They don't destroy land, stuff. They cost 3 cmc for 1 mana, way worse then Birds, Elves at 1 cmc

I guarantee you that if put in 2,3,4 spirit guides, that there will be times, when don't get them in opening hand, don't get the ramp, get STUCK with them in hand, thru later draw, where, when I would much rather have a 3 cmc stone rain, 3 cmc Molten, any 4 cmc land destruction card, Avalanche Rider, Slime, etc, an where the consistency will be messed up.

Because of that I guarantee you that the deck will work better without Boom, Spirit guide.

Now if it was possible to get Boom/bust out on turn 2 without birds, elves, spirit guides, without help, then Boom would belong in deck. But since that's not possible, it doesn't belong in deck.

Ok, will look it up

Also Arkas, the reason why you, and others may not have seen similar builds, anything like this build:

1. For land destruction to be succesful, you need to start destroying land turn 2, turn 3 at the very latest.

2. You need 19 to 27 land destruction cards in your deck.

3. You need 14 to 18 creatures in deck.

4. You need creatures that can destroy land.

5. You need 1 cmc mana creatures like birds, elves, to destroy land on turn 2,3.

6. You need versatile land destruction cards that cost 3 cmc, 4 cmc, that also do other things like destroy creatures, artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers, permanents, burn, search, tutor, destroy land, etc

7. You need creatures between 3 cmc, 4 cmc, 5 cmc, 6 cmc, 7 cmc, that will do all the things listed in point 6 above.

8. You need a way to get your land destruction cards from your graveyard back to your hand.

9. You need a way to copy your land destruction cards, creatures, etc

10. You need finishers like Charmbreaker, Tyrant, World Breaker, Karn, etc, that also destroy land, do other things, etc

11. You need land destruction cards that also burn, do lots of damage, that help win the game.

12. The decks colors need to be A. Red, B. Green, C. Black, as those are the colors with the best land destruction cards, that do other stuff, things.

13. A lot of players don't know about the above points

14. A lot of players don't know about the cards, don't know where to find the cards that do all the stuff in above points.

15. A lot of players don't have the budget to make this very expensive deck.

16. Because of all of the above points, not many players make a deck similar to this, and because of that, a lot of players haven't seen a deck similar to this.

17. Land destruction is not a liked deck

18. Because of all the above points, land destruction is usually a tier 1.75, 1.85, 2, 2.25, 2.35, 2.5, 2.65, 2.75, 2.85, deck.

19. Because of all the above points Land Destruction, usually is not popular, liked, played, built, innovated, improved.

20. Those like me, who do build some of the better, best land destruction decks, usually don't have the time, money, playing skill, not a pro, lack credibility, lack opportunity, not popular, etc, to be able get a top 8 finish out of LOTS of, 100 to 300 players, at a Grand Prix, to Prove deck is tier 1, tier 1.5, in order to get people to copy, derive, build, play, similar land destruction decks.

21. The best, only way to see a similar land destruction deck as this, is for players to recognize how good the deck plays, and +1, like it, get it on various MTG Sites, hot deck pages.

Otherwise, you probably won't see a deck like this often, for all the reasons named in the above points.

Me, and others have spent a long time, trying to make the best land destruction decks, regardless of cost to do so.

This deck is pretty much, almost done, an or done. Altho I am not open to whole sale, LOTS of changes, I am still open to logical comments, suggestions, like the ones Arkas, Dedwards made

Arkas, Dedwards, thanks for your comments, suggestions, likes, +1's, etc.

Arkas, to answer your concern, hope, that the deck plays smoothly, it has so far in the 15 to 50 sample hands on the sample hand thing. Both the variant of this deck that I posted elsewhere, that got about 39 +1's, likes, played smoothly, top 10 out of 29 to 59 players, at local game store tournaments, local city, local convention tournaments, and this variant, improvement, retoolment, etc, have both played smoothly, in competition, games, casual, kitchen table, tournaments, play testing, sample hands, etc.

Ok, I scoured, searched the card database, and can't find anything that can make Boom/bust playable on turn 2, without a Bird, Elf, that won't mess up deck. I mean I could put in memnites, and infernal plunges, and mox opals, but that would mean in order to make room for those cards in deck, I would have to cut land destruction, other important cards, and land destruction, other stuff, things, would be a lot less consistent.

So because of that, taking Boom/bust out, unless someone can show me how to cast Boom/Bust, by itself, on turn 2 without a bird, elf, memnites, mox opals, infernal plunges, etc, helping it to get out turn 2.

The ONLY PURPOSE OF 2 cmc, Boom/Bust, is to cast it for 2 cmc, on turn 2, without aid of bird, elf, mox, memnites, plunges, etc, for 2 mana. The purpose of Boom/Bust would be to Turn 1 land, pass turn, turn 2 land, successfully cast Boom/Bust, so that it only affects your opponent, not you.

Right now I don't see how that's possible, unless someone shows me how, so because of that taking Boom/Bust out, because it not do its purpose of turn 2 drop, without help, unless someone shows me otherwise.

So because of that, Boom/Bust comes out.

Would like to make it work on turn 2, without help tho.

Need a Flagstones of Trokair type of land for Red, Green, where it tap for 1 green, or 1 red, and then when it goes into graveyard, you can search for a Mountain, or a Forest.

Trokair: Tap for white mana, if, when, if Trokair goes to graveyard, search for plains, and put plains into play tapped.

Now that would work:turn 1 land pass turn, turn 2 play Trokair, tap land, and tap Trokair for 1 white, or 1 colorless, cast Boom/Bust, destroy opponent land, destroy your land, Trokair goes to graveyard, search for a plains to put into play tapped.

Only problem: 1. If ran 2,3 Trokair, it would ruin mana base for deck, 2. I don't, won't run plains in deck, 3. Because of points 1,2, Trokair won't work.

Taking Boom/Bust out, because can't cast Boom/Bust on turn 2 without a bird, elf, because no fetch land that can tap fetch land for mana, before sacrificing it to fetch, search land into play

Turn 1 play land, pass turn. Turn 2: either: play non fetch land, cast Boom, destroy opponents land, and my own land: FAIL, or play fetch land Wooded Foot hills. Can't tap Wooded Foothills for mana, can't cast Boom turn 2: FAIL, or play fetch land that can be either tapped for mana, or sacrificed, tap fetch land, tap non fetch land, cast Boom, destroy opponent Land, it destroys my land, because can't sac it, because already tapped fetch sac land for mana, so can sac, fetch land, FAIL.

Not seeing a way to cast Boom on turn 2, without a Bird, Elf

Another problem I am seeing, is: The reason why I would want to run Boom, is that if turn 1 fail to drop a bird, elf, then want to turn 2, 2 cmc Boom. The problem with that is: 1. I can't tap fetch land like Wooded Foothill for mana, which means I have to sac it, then search either a stomp grounds, basic mountain, forest into play, then I cast Boom on turn 2, then destroy opponents land, then my land, OOPS.

Only way a turn 2 Boom drop, without a earlier turn 1 Bird/Elf drop, is going to work, is if I can tap the fetch land for mana first, then cast Boom, then sac the tapped for mana fetch land, search into play stomping ground, forest, mountain.

The problem with doing that, is Wooded Foothills the fetch land, does not tap for mana, before sac, fetching.

So is there a fetch land out there that can tap for mana, first, even colorless mana first, in order to cast Boom, on turn 2, before sac, fetch? I don't know of any.

If can't cast Boom on turn 2, without the aid of bird, elf, without also destroying my land, then Boom would be pointless in deck. The ONLY reason for Boom to be in deck, is to cast Boom on turn 2, without the aid of a bird, elf.

Tho instant speed is better. Wrecking Ball is still better because it removes creatures, an or land, for the same mana cost, because of that it doesn't matter that it's a sorcery. Yes it would be even better if it was a instant instead of a sorcery, but as a sorcery it's still better than any 4 cmc instant speed land destruction card, that only destroys land, and nothing else. Versatility trumps instant speed, unless, except for the times when there is a important reason why instant speed is more important (example instant speed spells in a werewolf deck, so that can pass turn, flip werewolves, and do something during opponents turn, and not lose tempo, or using instant speed draw during opponents turn in a miracle deck.)