dknight27

I'm surprised to see no summoner's pact in here as it does almost everything you want. Ups the spell count, fetches a win condition, if glimpse of nature isn't in play yet it fetches a wraith to draw, if glimpse is in play it fetches a 0 for upped spell count and a +1, or it grabs a spirit guide as a mana source.
Yes, it makes this a turn 1 only deck, but since that's the point I don't see it being a problem

Also, I'm seeing a problem in running 4 shield spheres over 4 crimson kobolds as the sphere won't be able to attack with flame kin zealot and kobolds will, cutting short one of your win conditions.

The biggest challenge I see this deck facing as it is is that 22 lands for such a miniscule curve is a waste of spots. Realistically you could get away with 20 and be more than fine, or even drop it to 18 or 19, especially with how many search lands you're running.
I'm also not the biggest fan of dash hopes in here, both because of its specific mana cost, which drives down your ability to play it turn 2, and because running counters requires open mana, which this deck won't have in the early game and will struggle with until the late middle game. You would much rather play your 1 drop turn 1, then play a second 1 drop turn 2 and have your other mana open to respond, then go from there. In addition, its a bad topdeck as its conditional to spells being cast rather than anything that is in play, thus making it unable to affect boardstate. So, if you dopdeck it while you are behind, you're screwed. It also gives the opponent the option to eat the 5 and retain both card advantage and tempo, which is a problem in a deck that eats its own life. I would perhaps consider inquisition of kozilek as it ups the 1 drops, ups the turn 1 dicard greatness that buys time, and isn't as mana specific.
I also see a problem with running 4 claim's as they require applicable targets, and you only have 8 in the deck, so its a brick till you get it to work. Yes it fetches the juggernauts, but running 4 ups the chances drastically of seeing it sit in your hand for a wile while you lose the field. Maybe drop it to 2.
Just my thoughts, not trying to hate on the deck. I love builds like this

Agreed on all counts

A lot of the theoretical structure looks good here. I particularly like goblin dark-dwellers, but I'm seeing a problem with the lands, specifically the tempo problem you will almost certainly have. 7 of your lands come in conditionally untapped, 6 of your lands come in tapped (wilds produces a tapped), and 8 come in untapped but producing 1 color. This seems ripe for the chance at a hand where you drop a tapped land, flowed by a second tapped land before you ever get the chance to act or respond in the first 2 turns, which is a major problem for a deck like this. If you don't have 2 untapped lands available turn 2, a deck that runs heavy counterspells at 2 drops like this loses all the tempo it needs to stay afloat. I would consider dropping temple of epiphany entirely, as the scry isn't worth the loss of tempo, and switching to a guaranteed untapped early game land, some of which are slightly more expensive, so a basic might be the best option in your price range.

I'm also not seeing too much advantage from running 4 atarka's commands, as the burn damage is nice but not your win condition, the creature buff is conditionally advantageous (tokens galore), and the other 2 don't help enough to justify 4 copies (you run 4 so you will have a shot at having it in your opening hand. Personally I would prefer something that helped retain card advantage and tempo like remand, or another control element which keeps you alive until your win conditions start ticking.

I'm also surprised to see no 1 drop blue tactical cards like opt in here, as they are the bread and butter of running blue in a deck like this. Opt goes for a quarter a pop nowadays, so for a dollar you get a turn 1 play that ups the consistency of your deck, combos beautifully with your young pyromancers, and is one of the best topdecks you could hope for (gives you a cheap and decent choice).

Temur charm seems a bit shallow in this build. It's removal condition is highly conditional (you need a creature that will win the fight, which is 5 targets in this deck (4 more for a flipped delver, but you still might lose it), the counter is just a more expensive and high maintenance version of mana leak, and the non-block abil is a bad addendum to a win condition. Yes, it gives you a little choice, but with the limited lands in this deck, and the overall conditional nature of the choice, many better options for the deck exist in my mind.


All of this being said, I'm not trying to hate on the deck at all. I love that you went for it, even on a budget. Just trying to give a little feedback and help move the old girl along so you can stay consistent with it and survive long enough to cast the goblin into a bolt, murder off a creature, and start plowing away.

Thanks for the input, doing stuff like this is my favorite part of magic, or games in general. Architecting concepts that underlie what's going on in game mechanics is a blast.
It's worth noting that I've had success with ojutai pulling back thermo-alchemist, especially in decks that basically run thermo and nothing else but spells. I know the little guy doesn't see much play, but ive used him as a win condition in a deck that does nothing else but control and its feels great to ojutai him back at the end of opponent's turn, draw a card, and next turn tap him up for a couple damage and keep doing it every turn after that.

All true, I'm just trying to glimpse some advantage in splashing in 1 copy to topdeck, improve field presence, and net you a +1. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I at least see the potential

This is exactly why I play sleight of hand over serum vision all day every day. And I totally agree, the unpredictability and lack of flash drops the old girl down a peg. But in my mind running 1 copy (or 2 if you're feelin frisky) that you will almost certainly topdeck removes most of the danger of a missed exile and is almost guaranteed to give you some advantage for the cost. But that's me

I started with running 4 helixes, but trimmed them down because this deck REQUIRES a turn 1 play or reaction, and has a decent chance of operating on only 1 land for a few turns (which is the point), so helix was hurting the 1 drop saturation and because of its specific mana cost my thoughts were to cut it way down to streamline the whole thing.
As for death's shadow, ya that's well worth the consideration for sure. I've never really used the little guy, but I like the idea.
And, in response to the general notion that this deck bleeds like a stuck pig, I wholeheartedly agree. However, my wager with this deck is that it is so fast, counterproductive to opponent's plans, and overstuffed with material that it can win before opponent has the chance to capitalize on the 10 or so lp it will drain all by itself by about the 5th turn.

True, ya any land hate or slowing process and this deck will stall out pretty quickly. I guess the wager is a turn 1 discard option buys enough time to ignite the win conditions and then sideboard in some heavy assistance

Will do.
Ya, I was pondering (I wish) swiftspear, and had mixed feelings on it. could definitely be a powerhouse in here though, especially if I cut another land or two. I'm always hesitant to dip below 19 because of the mulligans I know im gunna take, but perhaps 18 isn't unreasonable

I'm not a big fan of 1 copy of spell pierce in here, as the lack of saturation cuts down on its ability to be effective early game, and once you get into the middle game and beyond it can be a brick sitting in your hand.
Also, this deck is extremely heavy on 2 drops with a thick saturation of 3 drops that really slows down its ability to react in the first few turns, and completely cuts the tempo if you plan on casting a creature on the second or third turn.
Both problems can be solved by switching into some 1 cost blue draw effects like sleight of hand or opt, both of which speed the deck up and give it more tactical consistency.
I'll voice my usual concerns about running 4 snaps, especially in a deck that only runs 20 targets (this build is rather heavy on creatures (not a bad thing)), but I'm fully prepared to be ignored on that one as the majority of MTG players disagree with me.

Just my thoughts.

I was struggling to find other 1 drops to maybe sub in for some fatal pushes, any recommendations?
I've had success with thermo before in similar instant/sorc-heavy decks, I'll test him out and see how much damage he can contribute, but in a couple red/white/blue control builds he has been pretty devastating for me

Some creature control (fatal push, go for the throat, etc) would definitely be helpful

I dont see it being a problem with no man lands and the relatively tight curve we've got here

I don't like 25 lands in this deck. Even with the wilds thinning things out that seems excessive. You should be able to get by with 23 realistically in my opinion.

I love the idea that monoblack can compete in legacy.

Some of the problems I see in here are as follows:

-problem- the 16 discard sorceries basically guarantee a turn 1 or 2 (or both) discard, which tempos the opponent nicely, but after that they (discard cards) run out of steam quickly. Topdecking them in the middle game and onward is borderline useless, especially since opponent can play instants in response, and in game 2 and 3 opponent can change playstyle considerable to sluice cards onto the field and keep a blank hand or a hand with only instants, effectively murdering 16 of your cards (20 if you count the specters) which is a huge problem.

-solution- one thing that helps tremendously ive found as an outlet for "overtaxed" discard outlets is pack rat, which turns the useless discard cards into win conditions (note, fixes your useless land problem as well), so if you have one it doesn't really matter what you draw

-problem- 4 dark rituals is risky- yes, it gives you a possible turn 1 specter, or turn 1 thoughtseize and hymn, but the advantage there isn't as big as it at first seems. Turn 1 specter uses 2 of your cards to accelerate and takes a turn to take a card away from opponent, so in order to get card advantage from it you have to actually cycle through another turn, giving opponent +1 card to respond to it and a whole other turn before you actually get ahead on the combo (using the dark ritual puts you at -1, so you have to hit with specter twice to be +1), which really gives opponent 2 turns to respond to gain equality (note, 1 drop answers to specter are run in legacy all day long- path, bolt, fatal push, etc). Turn 1 thoughtseize and hymn runs into similar, albeit less worrisome, problems, as it takes 3 of your cards to make opponent discard 3 of his, putting you at +0 with a targeted discard and the chance to rob opponent of lands. That being said, the rob lands factor is high, especially if you drop thoughtseize first, so this option is much better, but it requires 3 cards to group together, which is slim in an opening.
4 rituals also allows you to do a turn 2 obliterator, which is lovely of course, but you run into the same +/- problems as above, in that you will be at -1 and opponent will either have +2 or 3 cards to respond to negate the combo, meaning that he will have 9 or 10 cards (1/6 of his deck) to undo the threat before it even starts rolling, making it less valuable as a credible threat.
On top of all of this, once you get past turn 4 or 5 ish, its a complete dead draw as this deck's curve is minimal and tombstalker is gunna have no problem delving. Which brings your decks possible dead draw total to 20 (discard and ritual becoming less useful/useless once both players are out of the opening).

-solution- pack rat helps to fix this for the same reasons as above, but honestly I wouldn't even bother running it, especially with the tendency for legacy to feature endless counter stuff without paying a mana cost effects like force of will, which will nuke your chances. Yes, it is gunna take away your turn 1 madness, but since youre running currently 12 turn 1 discard options (virtually guaranteeing you will have one in the opening hand), you retain significant tempo to start the game anyway, so fixing the possible dead draw/card advantage problems by dropping it is worth considering.

-problem- your curve is actually slightly off. You're currently running only 8 2-drops, but its actually lower because malakir wants to be a 3 drop (although can function without it if necessary), so really you only have hymn to play turn 2, which cuts down on the decks tempo gaining greatly (this holds true even if you keep the rituals because you will use them turn 1). In addition, your creature base is heavily 3 drops and up, meaning youre giving opponent time to recover from your turn 1/2 discard before you are actually up and running on a win condition, which is a problem.

-solution- consider swapping out specter or nighthawk (or both) for gifted aetherborn/dark confidant/bitterblossom. Yes, confidant and blossom cost a pretty penny, so that might not be an option, but aetherborn still goes for cheap and is a faster and realistically more useful card in your deck than nighthawk because you can drop it turn 2 and start the clock a runnin, and in legacy the lack of flying will be less worrysome.

-problem- your curve is low enough to be ok with 20 lands, especially if you swap into some of the suggestions above, but I would want to see at least a few more fetch lands to really grind the consistency of this deck into gear. Again, they are a touch expensive, so no worries if its not an option.

-solution- optional

-problem- you barely have any direct interaction for boardstate, which is ok because youre trying to stop it with discard, but if opponent slips anything by you its gunna be hard to deal with

-solution- swapping out rituals and cutting into the 3 drops for 2 drops will speed the deck up/make it more consistent which should minimize this potential badness.

Just my thoughs

solid, does both things you want and is basically the best topdeck youre gunna get, and doesn't affect your curve too much

Ah, the death of the probe. She was great while she lasted, and a common at that.
Honestly I would consider cutting blue altogether as you're only running the 4 cards and it ups the chance of a mulligan, which would be hard to deal with in a deck with less than 20 lands. Maybe up the thoughtseize to 4 (ups the info with the loss of peek) and maybe 3 path to exiles, or 3 inquisitions? Maybe even a copy or two of dismember if you really want to bleed.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of mutagenic growth or temur battle rage in here.

I know the growth bleeds you, sneaks in some damage, and fodders your grave for delving, but even if you double strike the damage it gives I'm not sure its worth the spot since it doesn't generate direct advantage and relies on a variety of circumstances. This is further compacted because there are only 3 direct control cards (thoughtseize) and only a few possible preventative acts (bauble, peek), meaning that you could commit the growth and then face a terminate/path/etc. and be down 2 to 1 with a loss of tempo, which would devastate.

I have similar problems with battle rage, in that its conditional and contains the possibility of committing too much to 1 creature, especially game 2 and 3.

That being said, I think this looks solid. Slip through space seems like it might find a home in this deck, possibly as a substitute for battle rage? Replaces itself and bypasses annoying blockers gaining you a tempo and damage for 1 mana that can also be topdecked into replacing itself if you dont' have the proper circumstances.

Although, I don't see a blue source of mana in here.

I love what you're doing here.

How does lingering souls work with copter? I assume that's the combo for the copter, but my worry is that it doesn't give enough advantage to justify the spot as its conditional. Personally I go with things like batterskull in that spot, but that's me.

Not sure that the deck needs vault of the archangel as 1- the curve in here is so low so you don't need to run 23 lands, 2- hurts your color output in the early game and stops you from the turn 2 sculler or aetherborn, and 3- gives you conditional advantage in the late middle game when you can hold down a creature(s) and have the open mana to maximize it. It does help even out the confidant drain, but with a curve that basically stops cold at 3 my guess would be that 22 lands would be better.

I'm not a big fan of the 1 copy of zealous persecution, as its not gunna be consistent enough to count on as a game finisher or a nuke against rush mechanics. Perhaps better in the sideboard? Conditionally its a wonderful card.

I have similar thoughts about collective brutality. I prefer the mainboarded blessed alliance, but that's me.

I'm not sure how I feel about liliana in here, but ive never given her any play. How does she pilot?


All of this being said, I believe wholeheartedly that this mechanical setup can and does work, and I'm overjoyed to see sculler get some action. I love the little guy. In my opinion he shouldn't be as cheap as he is by any means. Good work friend, keep it up.