Puschkin

Yes, I started in late 1994, so it's actually 22 years now (kinda scary), then again, I left the tournament scene around Mirrodin, so there is always something to catch up to. Magic is a game of constant change and it becomes increasingly more difficult to stay up to date (both cardwise and regarding tech). Even after 22 years you can learn something new every day in Magic which is both the beauty and the beast in Magic :)

As I said, I don't take this deck serious enough for actual competitive play. The odd mana base is indicator enough that this deck has never seen play.

Anyway, IF this was for competitive Modern play - shouldn't then Orb be maindeck?

Also ... doesn't this assume the opponent can't kill the Orb? I mean, again, the goal is to deck him via letting him draw his entire deck in the course of many turns ... so he might still win even with Orb out because a well placed artifact destructor opens the floodgate for targetted shenanigans.

In our group we call this "The Moat-Effect" - having a Moat is a great way to protect you from creatures but the opponents can still build up a horde and should the Moat ever leave play you will most likely die the same turn in one fell swoop.

BTW, as I experienced recently with his Shared Fate deck, this deck's author has typically no interest in duscussing his own decks, all of our discussion is basically a waste of time unless you like to discuss for discussion's sake or want to kindof teach the public. Just so you know :)

Lol, Bacon42! I just checked your decks! You have 6 posted, one of them being your own Turbo Fog variant. Among the other 5 decks is one deck that would win via Felidar Sovereign, one deck with an infinite mill combo that involves a creature, one is an Eldrazi deck where every creature in the deck has annihilator and you are asking why a Turbo Fog deck should run creature removal (at least in the side) ?

That was just an example for mechanics that circumvent both Fog and Orb. Also, again, this deck tries to win by decking the opponent. So, he will draw his entire deck. At some point every creature he has in his deck will be on the battlefield - so it wouldn't be a single Pulse Tracker or Extort guy, whatever it is, it would amass.

Just go through your own decklists and look what the games would be like. Your Temur runs Purphoros which can combo-kill him even with continous Fogs and Witchbane Orb out. "Sorry, you can't cast that" has Disciple of the Ring which, with enough sorceries/instants in your grave, can counter a crucial Fog. "Kill then with Elves Deck" has Shaman of the Pack which ingnores Fog and Thornbow Archer which ignores both Fog and Orb. Finally, there's your "Excuse me, that's MY life!" deck, which runs a total of SIXTEEN creatures that kill him no matter what he does! That's four decks out of 6 non-EDH-decks you published!

Everybody that still questions the need to include creature removal should do the same: Check your own decks and count the problematic creatures you find. The numbers should speak for themselves.

I already mentioned Eidolon of the Great Revel (which is a Modern staple for aggro decks). He doesn't care for Witchbane Orb and with it out, every Fog you cast deals 2 damage to you. We also established that the annihilator mechanic is a huge problem, so that's a whole bunch of creatures you need to handle.
I don't know what else is played in Modern because I don't give a damn about that format. But looking at my casual decks, most of them would be happy if they got paired against this.

- The currently top deck you can see, "The Message", would kill him with Grey Merchant of Aspodel.
- The next deck would kill him with Xathrid Demon.
- The next one doesn't count because it's an EDH deck, on the other hand it illustrates well why you would need creature removal, not just for ones that can kill you but also for other reasons, in this case dozens of hatebears, most notably Spirit of the Labyrinth, Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
- "Zuberazauber" is the first deck on my list that can't overcome Fog+Orb (you will still lose first game, though, because it doesn't care for Fogs)

That doesn't look good and they are freaking casual decks. Okay, maybe it's *because* they are casual decks, but it should give you ideas about things that can seriously screw with a Turbo-Fog deck that can't kill creatures at all. Heck, a single creature with Extort could kill you! Psychosis Crawler kills you. A fucking Pulse Tracker can kill you! It's the random things you should be worried about. And there is so much more besides outright kills - something like Meddling Mage targetting "Fog" or a Mystic Snake that keeps getting bounced.

I'd also like to add that, if this deck would have a Wrath of God or two (which, BTW, can kill Emrakul), then you would not NEED to Fog every single turn! Casting Wrath would give you a few turns to breathe. When I made suggestions I made them as a bunch.

Creature removal won't stop most eldrazis, however, there are other decks out there as well. More importantly, I never took the author's claim that this is for competitive play for serious, we don't really need a breakdown of current decks to beat - I just picked examples from there but generally said, having NO creature removal at all is a big mistake. There are just way too many creatures out there that can ruin his day, *especially* if his meta is as weak as this list suggests. Most of my casual decks would beat him simply because they contain a few creatures that can kill him without attacking. I didn't insist to have removal in the main board but at the very least he should have some in the side.

I didn't say less draw, I just said 12 Holwing Mine effects are overkill especially in a deck that basically has nothing else and no answers to enchantments, artifacts AND problematic creatures that don't involve the combat step. I would -as I said- add Howling Mines before anything else but Rites of Flourishing should have priority over all other three artifacts he has there. We need deckspace and this is the only part where we can cut. BTW, I said "Howling Mines" as a catch-all for Temple Bell, Atlas and Font.

And I wholeheartedly diasagree over Atlas. Atlas costs 4 mana (which is way too much, at turn 4 you need to have mana open for fogging) and then it doesn't do anything for at least another turn. You need to put one counter on it just to get even with Temple Bell and Howling Mine and two full turns just to get even with Font. +another precious turn to finally get ahead the others. That's ... sub-par to say the least. And don't forget that you don't draw any extra card during the turn you put another counter on it, which means, by the time you finally draw 3 cards, the others are still ahead! Look:

Howling Mine:
Turn 3: 1 card, 1 total
Turn 4: 1 card, 2 total
Turn 5: 1 card, 3 total
Turn 6: 1 card, 4 total
Turn 7: 1 card, 5 total
Turn 8: 1 card, 6 total
Turn 9: 1 card, 7 total

Temple Bell:
Turn 4: 1 card, 1 total
Turn 5: 1 card, 2 total
Turn 6: 1 card, 3 total
Turn 7: 1 card, 4 total
Turn 8: 1 card, 5 total
Turn 9: 1 card, 6 total

Font of Mythos:
Turn 4: 0 cards, 0 total
Turn 5: 2 cards, 2 total
Turn 6: 1 card, 4 total
Turn 7: 1 card, 6 total
Turn 8: 1 card, 8 total
Turn 9: 1 card, 10 total

Otherworld Atlas:
Turn 4: Add counter, 0 cards total
Turn 5: Add second counter, 0 cards total
Turn 6: add third counter, 0 total
Turn 7: 3 cards, 3 total
Turn 8: 3 cards, 6 total
Turn 9: 3 cards, 9 total


The Atlas is clearly the worst. If you start drawing cards earlier with it, then you still have no benefit over ther other options.

It might be for casual but it claims to strive in competitive and beat eldrazi.

I actually forgot a big point:

* The deck also has Zero creature removal! All fog does is preventing combat damage - there are thousands of other things creatures can do. The annihilator mechanic has already been mentioned (because the deck says it's got at ruining the day for eldrazi decks) but there is so much more. For example many Modern burn/aggro decks run Eidolon of the Great Reveal and Grim Lavamancers. Podless decks run the Melira/Redcap combo which kills you without attacking. Stuff like that WILL kill you since the chance for the opponent to draw them will be 100% against this deck.

If he wasn't aiming for Modern then he would have an entire different mix of Fogs, most notably Constant Mists.

Hm, yet another Turbo-Fog deck with the same problems:

* Why doesn't this run Isochron Scepter!? It would save you so many cards ... yes, budget, yaddayadda, but Scepters aren't that expensive anymore and would boost the performance of this deck tremendously.

* If you DON'T run Scepter, why not then play some better Fogs like Riot Contro or Arachnogenesis? Also, Scepter or not, I highly recommend Dawn Charm instead of either Fog or Holy Day.

* ZERO enchantment/artifact removal, not even in the sideboard! This will cause untold troubles against many decks - remember, your gameplan is to outlast the opponent until he drew his last card which means whatever he has in his deck, it WILL see play!

* Instead you waste no less than 11 (!) sideboard slots on an alternative win just to beat players that can reshuffle their library. Wouldn't 1-2 Tormod's Crypts do the trick for you? I mean, you can reuse them indefinately thanks to those Elixirs. This would allow you to add artifact/enchantment removal and you'd still have room for more things.

* Howling Mine has been mentioned. But Rites of Flourishing is the card to use in here! Should replace the Otherworld Atlas and/or Font of Mythos, both of which are way too slow/expensive for this deck! I also think that you shouldn't dedicate 12 slots to Howling Mines ... that's overkill and waste of slots. Don't forget, you pay mana and waste a card just to let both of you draw extra cards - which isn't a good play against most decks. You'll need it later on when you stabilized and ran out of Fogs but you don't need one in your opening hand. It's enough to get a single one within the first 5 or so turns and that means you can go down to about 8 Howling Mine like effects and still be fine. That means another 4 precious open slots.

* The deck, as it currently is, features 16 cards that need white mana but only 8 that need green mana. Yet the mana base features an equal distribution of 12 Plains and 12 Forests. Things like these make me wonder ... nah, no rant this time :)

I don't know. You don't even upvote my posts when I help you. But, at least you are polite, thankful and willing to learn.

About the deck and the changes you made:
You still run those curses and I don't know why.
Also, since you seem to be determined on keeping manaelves, let me suggest you upgrade those Elvish Mystics to Sylvan Caryatid.

He suggested no less than 12 cards which means he would go down to 38 rats, that's roughly every third card. Ripple looks up 4. While he will still get a rat statistically within those 4, chances aren't big enough anymore to count on it or to dump a significant number of them in one go. Statistically speaking you would get 3 rats and than failing to get one. It also means that, statistically speaking, Thrumming Stone will grant you NO rat every fourth game.

Also, what I said was just a reminder - every time you add something, a rat will go and that will effect their performance. You have to seriously weigh the addition and the more you go down, the better the card you add needs to be. A lot of what he suggested was "meh".

It's just a lesson I learned in the early days when I made a goblin deck. I ran Goblin Kings, Goblin Shrines, Goblin Caves and Goblin Warrens in full playets each and added even more things on top of that like Keldon Warlords and Goblin Grenades to go with the Warrens. But it turned out to have way too many pumpers/enablers/cards that are only good when it is rolling and way too few actual goblins (Goblin King was just a "Lord" but not a goblin back then).

You have to realize, though, that every single card you add will reduce the number of Relentless Rats. At some point you'll run the risk of Thrumming Stone's ripple effect to fail, which is this deck is relying on. Even as a regular deck wihout ripple combo you should be careful to lower the RR-count - at some point you'll have more support cards in the deck than actual rats! You suggested no less than 12 (!) cards to add which would reduce the amount of the currently 50 RRs down to 38. And that's a huge difference ... you'll draw a rat every third card instead of every second!

As I said it would be helpful to have a proper deckname, tags and description with intended format etc.

From what I see I *guess* it is a deck that wants to win via Hedron Alignment. But if that is true, it needs a lot of work:

* I am also guessing here but am I right that you plan to use those curses on yourself!? That's a very inefficient way to get Hedron Alignment into graveyard and exile because they don't do nothing else.

* Vraska, Garruk and Ashiok don't help you with Alignment. They should be replaced with planeswalkers that fit better or with something entirely different. I especially question that Garruk since your deck has only 8 creatures.

* Talking of those creatures: Mana Elves and Birds are great, however, they die pretty fast and you don't have any other creatures, so whatever creature removal the opponent has will concentrate on those 8 toughness-1-mana-dorks. Birds are needed because early coloured mana but I wouldn't play Elvish Mystic in this and replace him with either regular lands or mana artifacts.

* Psychic Spiral - I don't see the use in this. In fact, it works against Hedron Alignment.

Cards to look into:
~library to hand~
- Intuition (would be the best way to get you kickstarted)
- Perplex (transmutes for 3 => can fetch a Hedron Alignment!)
- Gifts Ungiven
- Infernal Tutor

~hand to graveyard~
- Foil
- Ideas Unbound
- Mind Bomb
- Compulsion
- Monastery Siege
- Oath of Jace

~hand to exile~
- Force of Will
- Misdirection
- Snapback
- Holistic Wisdom

~library to graveyard~
- Fact or Fiction
- Forbidden Alchemy
- Mulch
- Gifts Ungiven

~graveyard to exile~
- Cremate
- Phyrexian Furnace
- Withered Wretch

~library to exile~
- Manipulate Fate
- Distant Memories

Note that, unlike your curses, all of these cards do something else than just milling or exiling, you either draw extra cards or get an extra effect.

You should add tags and a deck description before making calls for help! And maybe make it a legal deck first with 60 cards and state the intended format ... and a prober deckname would help, too! Millions of decks are 3-coloured, that isn't really helpful. It is probably a deck build around Hedron Alignment, right? But hat isn't easy to decypher.

Added Volcanic Offering ...

You'll also (hopefully) draw removal and will be able to cast bigger stuff. If he has 3-4 creatures you'll lose either way, wall or not. This deck rarely won, I think just one time, and that was with a near-perfect hand and a slow opponent. But while tinkering with the deck I found that any deviation from from the basic formula of just mana and 0-1 cc carddrawers weakens the deck. I tried it with walls, I tried it with Tangle Wires, it just doesn't work. But when I replaced those distractions with more cheap carddraw, I got closer to my goal.
If you don't believe me, why don't you build the deck and try yourself? This deck has been retired for a varity of reasons.

Sigh.
Shared Fate is the SWITCH. From then on yoj have to beat your opponent as fast as possible which is a race against what he has already in play and what he still holds in hand. This isn't Hearthstone where your creatures can attack enemy creatures. So, when the opponent has access to walls post-Fate he'll delay your kill which buys him time to ride whatever he has to victory.
Yes, those walls can also delay the opponent before Fate. However, that's the thing though: You don't have time for walls! As I said about a dozen times already, Shared Fate has to hit play ASAP! Casting a wall for 2 to draw a card means you can't cast 2 one-mana-carddrawers and that makes all the difference. But post-fate your opponent has access to much more mana and can burn through your deck pretty fast. Which means he will be able to play a wall almost every turn.
I hope you can see the difference now and if you can't: Please, build the deck and play it yourself! It's an usual deck and there are some things that can't be properly explained and that you'd better learn yourself.

Also, who the fuck downvoted me for that!? I am the only one here that has actually played a Shared Fate deck! The author of this deck (who most likely stole the idea) hasn't answered ANY of the questions! I went at lengths explaining this deck, disussing what works and what doesn't, basing on actual experience with this deck, EVEN THOUGH ALL THAT TRAFFIC KEEPS THIS GUYS DECK ON HOT PAGE whereas my deck, which predates this by more than a year, stays unnoticed. I did so because I think helping people out is more important than vanity and didn't complain until now. But downvoting me for doing the hard work the author of this deck should do!?

Seriously. This sums up pretty well whats wrong with this place.


Everything you need to know about Shared Fate can be found in either my deck or my first comment of this thread. I won't reply to this one anymore.

I explained this several times already and am genuinely tired about this. Why don't you build this deck and play a few games, eh?

No. They slow you down when the opponent gets them. Which isn't negliable because he will have creatures from his opening hand that will set you on a clock.