dknight27

This and burn are pretty much my least favorite decktype. I considered calling it meat grinder

Howdy friend. I like the framework you have going here. Quick question before I give any more feedback. What's the budget on this?

Yep, I tend to agree. He punishes control builds like no other

Agreed, ghost quarter and field of ruin got some consideration in here, but I like both options better in the side as 4 horizon canopies ramps the card advantage into another realm in this build. Playtesting might prove me wrong, but for now I prefer the certain advantage I get with canopy over the conditional advantage of ghost quarter in the main, especially when game 2 they will side in if opponent needs his colonnade as a win condition, etc.

I've run the excavator in other similar builds, and I definitely see his value, but I have a hard time keeping him on the field. He dies to the rule of 3, and I don't want to block off something smaller with him and get him magma jetted (etc), so I've not had too much success with him. He would be a good sub in to help gifts manufacture the combo, so maybe with time I will swing that way, but right now I'm counting on 3 crucibles to be enough to make this deck do what it needs to do with the recycled land mechanic being an addition, not an essential aspect. Who knows though.

As always, thanks for the feedback

Updated version of the deck posted

http://www.mtgvault.com/dknight27/decks/modern-n2o-version-2/

I positively love abrade for exactly the same reason. You basically get 16 sideboard spots. And ya, smash to smithereens is pretty perfect for the theme that's going on here. I'm currently working on the sideboard, and the options look pretty marvelous

Looks pretty solid from an initial look. I love this type of mechanic, especially with the support that's been printed for it in recent sets. Search for Azcanta is perfect, it does whatever you need it to do. Bedlam reveler is right at home in this deck, as is sin prodder.

I do however see a couple things that could be a problem.

Firstly, you are sort of choked with 2 drop cards which is a problem for a deck that needs a turn 1 play and needs to be able to function on only 2 lands for a couple turns. This can not only be easily fixed but also lets you run the wonderful 1 drop blue tactical cards like opt, serum visions, sleight of hand, etc. I would go with opt as the instant speed gives you wonderful options with pyromancer and alchemist. Plus, 4 opts and 4 faithless looting basically guarantees you a turn 1 tactical play which puts this deck over the top. I would consider cutting down izzet charm as it gives you some advantage in the opening with its counter ability, but once both players are developed the counter ability is shut down, the 2 damage to a creature isn't as good as other options, and the draw and discard is already covered by faithless looting and its magnificent flashback abil. So, my thought is swap em out for 4 opts.

I'm not a fan of 4 bedlam revelers in here, especially with only 20 lands and 4 search lands. I know they are gunna hopefully get cast for RR, but since you need 6 instants and sorceries in the grave to do it, it won't be playable until the middle game, meaning you don't want it in the opening hand. Cutting it to 3 will cut down on it choking up the opening hand and make room for another instant/sorcery that will help you cast the other 3. Plus, you never want 2 copies in your hand because playing 1 means losing the other, unlike an instant or sorcery you can cast before reveler to maximize your card advantage.

I like the deep-fiend/kozilek's return combo, both as a card advantage generator and as a nuke with tempo (flash wins all day long). However, with only 2 copies of each I'm not seeing it being that relevant of a combo, and even if it connects you can't make it land without paying a chunk of mana (which this deck doesn't have) or by sacking a creature (which this deck can't really afford (token's don't have cmc to sac off)). Plus, kozilek's return nukes most of the advantage you generate with a lot of your cards (shuts down pyromancer and your token brigade, kills sin prodder). My advice would be to switch them out for 2 torrential gearhulks and 2 sweltering suns. Gearhulk is about the best win condition for control in the history of modern, and sweltering suns is an excellent fast nuke in here that you can cycle off if you don't need it. They both operate independently and work with the overall theme you've got going on. Plus, just picture torrential gearhulk flashing in to snap back electrolyze. 5/6 hits the field, possibly to block something, plus it can attack at end of turn, 2 damage to snipe something or drain opponent for 2, and draw a card. All for 1 gearhulk. I'm in love.

Just my thoughts. The skeleton you've got going here is exactly what you want from a deck like this. I just see a couple possible improvements. Nice job.

Good points all around. I've most definitely been thinking over the bedlam reveler's as heavy hitters and for the delicious hand refill. Swiftspear has also been on my mind, I'll keep working on it.

Here was my thought process with sculler:

turn 1- discard (8 options)
turn 2- sculler (discard) or alchemist (damage machine) or confidant (fuel machine)
turn 3 on- repeat

the double discard option turn 1 and 2 just seemed too tempting as it reverses the "going first card disadvantage" , completely dismantles whatever opponent is doing, and gives you a couple turns with a 2/2 to grind out some damage before opponent can develop a countermeasure. It's quite possible its a little overkill, especially with removal being no problem, but I see this deck having a little trouble against anything that says no, and bombarding opponent's hand early and starting a damage clock should go a long way to solving those problems.



In terms of the sideboard, absolutely the artifact hate is gunna have to be in super saturation. My plan was to vary up the cmc a little so they can't kill em all with 1 chalice

thanks for the feedback guys, this is still a work in progress, but I'm convinced there is at least SOMETHING of value in the theory behind it. I'm also looking heavily at boros charm as a substitute for a little of the removal, as there's so much

Some interesting ideas here. Personally I prefer sculler over maggot because it's a 2/2, so its a turn 2 drop that starts the damage clock running. Ya, unfortunately its an artifact too, so its super easy to remove, but if nothing else it will probably buy me a few turns of tempo as well as force opponent to waste removal on it.

I'm considering the land disbursement. I'd like to run at least 1 copy of each shock land so they are fetchable, but other than that I'm seeing the merit of the fast lands. I'm hesitant to switch to all basics, even if it nukes the chances of land disruption because with so few and the NECESSITY of a turn 1 drop, but maximizing the fast lands over shock sounds good

Thanks for the feedback, I know this is a sticky sort of deck

Yep, that's the idea. This deck looks to maximize the underlying mechanic of all magic, and most games honestly, that if you can mobilize a win condition faster than opponent, your own vulnerability isn't an issue, thus, the most important facet is a combination of speed (tempo) and fuel (card advantage). This deck seeks to maximize both while denying them to opponent, and thus doesn't care that it bleeds life like crazy

Well, the short version of why I built it like this is to try and find a way to "prison" things without running the normal prison meta cards. I don't even think its really possible to prison properly in modern to be honest. I've never had any success with it and I've never played against a modern prison build that has been able to keep up with the rest of modern's heavy hitters. Legacy is a different story, but for modern at least im just currently not seeing it.

That being said, this is a novel concept to me (any variation on a traditional prison build), so I have no idea how it will handle playtesting. But, I see at least potential here, possibly for a new style of prison, what I would fashion as tempo prison, or "stop and frisk" if you prefer.

The idea drawn out more liberally is this: legacy prison works because there are accelerants, particularly in land deployment and mana production, none of which is really available in modern. So, you let opponent respond to your prison effects on time and in many cases get the jump on the effects in the first place. Any fast creature build (merfolk, goblin, naya, etc) is gunna cruise through the first few turns, and with few direct interactions and no acceleration, you won't have the same control you get from a legacy counterpart (per capita). So, this build attempts to address that problem by either denying opponent turn 2 (remand, due respect) or quantum leaping your own turn 2 (explore), and from there keep dying tempo to the opponent while you slam down lands, retain boardstate, and grind into a win condition. This mechanic is also wickedly implemented with the massive tactical control the turn 2 stall cards are, combined with opt and crucible effects, so, while you're building your landbase, you're also moving through your deck at about a 1.75 rate vs opponent, which should, in theory, be enough tactical advantage to keep the tempo-prison running long enough to field a win condition. At least that's my theory.

In terms of the specific problems addressed in your post:

Crucible is a gift in this deck for a couple reasons. Yes the fetch lands are nice, as they up the land dropping ratio (this deck wants to drop a land every single turn if possible), but it also allows for man-land-devastation as you can chump block with them then replay them. And, best of all, horizon canopy and crucible work together to produce a wicked draw engine. Ya, the land hate lands that love crucible are nice for sure, but I'm not interested in busting opponent's duel lands or even their man-lands in this build, just denying tempo and then abusing my own land's return abils.

Due respect in particular sort of sparked my idea for this deck as it is a "sort of" time walk on turn 2 in modern, and isn't as conditional as remand (not reactive). If you draw it outside turn 2, it still replaces itself, so at least in theory, in my mind it's worth testing as a possible turn 2 eater, especially since remand does something similar and explore rounds out the deck's turn 2-themed cards to 12 (20% of the deck), which almost guarantees an opening hand with 1 of them.




Just walking you through my thought process. As I said above, this is positively in beta, so who knows if any of this is on the mark. Just my attempt to try forging a possible new type of control idea in modern. I'll keep kicking around the idea and see what happens. I am, however, positively assured that crucible and horizon canopy will continue to stay at the forefront of my thoughts on deck mechanics, at least in the near future.

Thanks for the feedback, and I totally get where you're coming from. I'm sure from the outside perspective this looks like more of a parole deck than a prison deck, but who knows, maybe there is something here that will be kicked loose with time.

ah, well that's fair.
I'm super bummed that the top has left the building. Did counterbalance hit too hard or something?

Rather bad at human interaction huh? A simple "unfortunately top is banned in legacy now" would have been fine.

I haven't played legacy in a few years now (modern is cheaper), so I guess I missed the banning of the top. Which is a shame, but what can you do.
As for snapcaster, yes cash was a factor, but I actually like gearhulk in here as a win condition (5/6 beater). And, the mana difference isn't really that big a factor from my perspective. Snap will flash back for a 2 drop most of the time (counterspell ideally), so 4 mana vs 6 mana when the 2 extra gets you a solid win condition is an ok trade in my book. Yes, 6 mana is a lot, but I have no intention of casting snap early anyway (need at least 3 lands and a good target in grave), so waiting a few more turns for the win condition that gives tempo and card advantage seems, at least to me in this build, to be a better fit. As I'm running only 3, the math is against me seeing it in the opening hand or any time but the late middle game, and with 22 lands I'm not too concerned about it being a brick. Plus, you can snap back force of will for only 6 mana rather than the 7 you need for snap.
I know this isn't a popular opinion in magic, but I detest having an opening hand with a snap, as its a brick for at least the first 3 turns (cuts down on any opening control which is murder against any combo mechanic with speed or a fast aggro). Just my opinion, I'd rather cut it to 3 spots and transform it into a win condition with gearhulk (overall saves spots and still gives control).

As for fixing the top problem, I'd probably swap in search for azcanta (accelerates the lands, massive card advantage in a build like this, etc).

Yep, you answered your own question. Basically the biggest problem in magic is getting the balance of lands vs non lands to hit when you want it to hit, so that you can drop lands to hit your operative curve quickly, hit your full curve on time, then draw as few lands as possible after that. Fetch lands do this better than pretty much every other mechanic designed to date.

For example, this decks operative curve (the minimum amount of lands the deck can survive on and still be functional) is 2. 27 cards in the deck are 2 drops or lower, so as long as you have 2 lands out you can do what the deck needs to do to survive. The decks full curve (the min amount of lands the deck needs to do everything) is 5, so any land you draw after that is a wasted draw. BUT, its essential you get the 2 lands you need in the first 2 turns and reach the full 5 quickly after that, so you need a way to accelerate land saturation early but remove it after the opening. Thus, fetch lands do EXACTLY what you need them to do in both situations. The small loss of life, 3-5 ish, is immaterial compared to the ability to not topdeck a land when you need material. Realistically, fetch lands should be more expensive than they are, and they're already a decent chunk of cash.

Same comment about opt in this one, but other than that this looks like it does exactly what it should do

Another deck I like very much.

I'm not seeing the 24 land being that beneficial with such a low curve, no man lands, and no need to keep mana open for counter spells and is more than capable of operating on only 1 land for a couple turns if necessary.

I'm also seeing opt being a better choice over serum visions (instant speed, pre-scry).

Perhaps Mindbreak trap should be considered as a generic combo hate, anti-supreme verdict.

Other than that, this looks extremely solid. Keep it up friend

I love builds like this.

I think you can get away with only 21 lands, and I don't really see a need for karakas unless you're in a meta that's heavy with targets. Another options is to keep karakas and run vendilion clique and reek some havoc with that combo (block, bounce, replay, hand devastation).

I can also see a potential problem with the 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms, as 8 copies of a tactics only card has the potential to clog the opening hand and hurt your ability to respond turn 1 and 2 (of note, I love both cards, I just see 8 copies being slightly too high). I would think dropping it to 2 ponders and 4 brainstorms would be enough tactical cards, which would open up spots for more control cards. Suggestions being disrupt, spell pierce, spell snare.

Other than that I see this being extremely reactive and holding its own. Nice job

it's probably best if we go our separate ways, peace be the journey

As for this one, let me start by saying that this is positively a work in progress, and I admit its not ready for the factory floor. To my knowledge, no direct interaction (besides high mana cost enchantments and psionic blast) has been printed for modern, which is a HUGE problem for mono-blue decks. That being said, I refuse to believe this mechanic is untenable, and thus the search continues.

Secondly, let me be clear in saying that nothing I say here is meant to demean you, put you down, or dissuade you from playing or pursuing magic. I say this because I gathered from your two comments on my decks that you are a newer player. I think this because you said my other deck has no win conditions and is missing a point, when in fact the structure (if not the cards or strategy) is a cookie cutter control build, which occupies about 1/3 of the decks its possible to build in magic (the other 2/3 being aggro and combo).

So, going on the assumption that you're a newer player (not an insult, and maybe im just reading the whole thing wrong), but let me explain some of the synergy and strategy this deck has going for it.

Basically, a control build like this stops the opponent from fielding their win condition if its aggro or stops the search and execution process if its combo, long enough to get a win condition on the board (while having the resources available to protect it and still maintain control). This deck accomplishes that with disciple of the ring (which I've never used before but wanted to test) and gearhulk, which is arguably one of the best additions to control in the history of the game (it flashes in with a control effect and then sits as a 5/6 beater putting opponent on a 4 turn clock). Yes, that's only 5 cards in the whole deck that act as a win condition, but the rest of the deck supports this few win conditions because they provide tactical advantage (rearrangement of the hand/moving through the deck), as well as tempo advantage (making opponent waste time/mana so you see more cards from the deck anyway), so really the consistency of seeing a win condition is much higher than it seems. In addition, search for azcanta is is just a plain old stupid card for control as it initially acts as a better version of a scry effect (like sensei's divining top), but turns, rather easily and quickly into a mana/card advantage producing engine of control doom. In a deck like this, and so many others, that mainly relies on instants/sorceries, the land version of azcanta is about as good as it gets. Plus, even if you don't have enough mana to consistently use its grab effect, it ups your available mana count, which is wonderful in a control deck that is starving for that gearhulk.

As for the idea of real synergy, yes I admit this isn't the most synergetic deck ever built, as I've said above this is very much still in beta stage, but the way the win conditions fit into the control elements is solid, search for azcanta feels right at home, and for the budget this deck is made for, its synergy isn't half bad. Disciple of the ring can be a real powerhouse considering that all it needs is a surplus of instants/sorceries and available mana (both of which this deck has). You can completely shut down non-creature spells, buff itself past the competition, buff itself for the win, tap its way past the competition, untap itself to block, untap a gearhulk to block, etc. And, being a 3/4 in base, its immune to the rule of 3 (3 damage being the standard burn damage used to murder creatures).

So, to overview what the deck does again, it has turn 1 and 2 plays basically every time to make sure you stop opponent's tempo grab, solidly holds onto the middle game, activates a win condition, protects it, and finishes out a grind. Every card is meant to further this purpose, and with the edition of supreme will and censor, I couldn't resist at least trying this build (as both cards are effective in the early game as affordable and diverse counters but if they can't be used to counter they work as a draw engine).

Just an explanation to perhaps clarify what my intentions were. Again, I'm not trying to be an ass at all.

As to my inclusion of gifts and why I'm not running any of the regular gifts combos, I've made plenty of decks like that and wanted to try something else.
I've had the hypothesis for a while now that gifts has potential in regular control builds to generate both card advantage and control combos with things like snap and gearhulk. Yes, it could be read as a 4 mana instant speed draw 2, but the grave effect makes it so much more useful in my opinion, especially for a control build that relies on tempo control and a decent supply of available mana. By running lingering souls, I can tailor my other 3 choices to counteract whatever deficit I've got going on and to chance the composition of the remainder of the deck, all while retaining card advantage. I've had some success picking 2 lands, lingering souls, and another copy of gifts, or a land, opt, souls, and gifts. In either case, opponent gets punished for basically every choice and you get what you want.
Now, I fully acknowledge that gifts is devastating as a combo setup, but again, this build is an attempt to test my theory that gifts is good as a standalone in control (with some minor acquisitions). We shall see how it plays out.

As for the colonnades, I know im in the vast minority of magic players for thinking so, but I don't think it's anywhere near as valuable as the current price would argue. Yes, its a win condition that doubles as a land, is immune to the rule of 3 damage, and happens to produce 2 of the 3 major control colors, and gains all the other advantages of man lands (immunity to stuff like abrupt decay, kozilek, etc), but the short version of my problem with it is this: I don't want to play it in the first 2 turns because I want the mana available (so I don't want it in my opening hand), and I would rather topdeck a card I can use for the turn, so I don't want to top deck it at all, meaning the only time I want to see it is while I have enough mana available for a counter/control element but not enough field presence/available resources to press forward with a win condition. Thus, I don't want to count on it as a land, or as a win condition.

Just my thoughts and an explanation of my choices. Maybe I'm dead wrong