2hp10: Nah! I just need to keep them on their toes all the time, and stay sharp myself. One thing that has changed over the time is the usefullness of shriekhorn. After playing mill for so long, the harder players have realised that even a card such as shriekhorn is a threat to them (Especially people I have milled down to 1-6 cards will think that), so a trend among players have spread that if I control an artifact it's better just to kill it as fast as possible, even if it has just a single counter left on it, they know mesmeric orb is a better target, but the horn is also dangerous in it's own way. So the standard reaction in here is to sideboard for some artisfact destruction just to cope with these two cards. Now since the horn in such conditions is less efficient, milling 2-4 cards instead of 6, suddenly cards like memory sluice carry more weight. The same thing goes for mesmeric orb. They all know I play with it, and they all side against it because they know how good it is. Mind sculpt mills 7 which is sometimes less than the orb can mill, and sometimes more, and I've set that aside for a while cause the orb is better in the long run. However it would be fun to lose the artisfacts, and put these other less-milling but more stable cards back in the deck and see how long time it takes for people to figure out that I no longer play them, and in the long run, this can be made into a cyclical ritual, so I stay unpredictable, and they suffer everytime they are unprepaired for the switch...
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SOULOFMIRRODIN: We've been doing this all over the place, and I wont copypaste the usual comment in this post, so I'll let you win the discussion here :) Now that I've broken the pattern I'd like to adress another milling strategy. Island sanctuary, worship, mesmeric orb, ghoulcaller's bell, lantern of insight, darkblast, dreamtwist and the two other flashback millingcards in innistrad cycle. How do you think that would work out ?
In the case that your opponent seems to play the bigger creatures you will propably lose wether the leyline is part of the deck or not, but you may opt to keep it in hand as a sweep and then pray that your opponent plays doubless! Just think of the leyline as a card that can be played in several ways. You will almost always be able to adjust your strategies with it! And if everything seems wrong about it, sideboard it or even loose it :)
SOULOFMIRRODIN: I love "building around" the problems I face in magic. Also, the larger a discussion becomes, the more other cards will tend to pop up in conversation, which is a great way to find the next step of innovation. I will try to face the challenge of building a creaturebased mill with 4 of each creature and leyline as the main concept, and then we can talk about the results in detail. It won't be as beatdown as other decks might be, but it will illustrate a point of using the leyline among 4 of each. CHEWRIDA: Funny thing is I usually play aggro too, but then I got bit by a mad miller! The rest is sort of history!
CHEWRIDA: Well, I've argued for putting the leyline between critters so much that I will have to prove my arguments through building such a deck! I will go to the drawingboard for a while and do just that. If it fails more than usual I'll concede a win to SOULOFMIRRODIN on this one :) SOULOFMIRRODIN: Two things can happen with glimpse the unthinkable. 1: The price will escalate now that they've made a second version of it! 2: The price will fall because they made a second version of it! I think it will be nr 1 that wins out, so get 8 copies of the new one while it's cheap, then trade the 4 extra's for the original when it's been priced higher after a while :)
SOULOFMIRRODIN: Well if you aren't stalking me, then you are just as stubborn and fireheaded as I am. I am stalking millingdecks too, and like to spread any innovations I can think of. Debate on any cards can only be good for all of us, and sometimes you or I will lose the argument, but I hope no harm is done at that. If we din't have our differences, neither of us would have put much thought into leyline combined with cryptoplasm, phyrexian metamorph or kor skyfisher! And at least two other people have decided to base a deck around the leyline instead of the mill, which would never have happened either if it wasn't for you and me, warring over the place. I expect you to do the same whenever I get other ideas, and in the case that I get a truly stupid idea, I hope you will pawn me sufficiently enough so that I withdraw that idea.
2hp10: I can't be discouraged :) Well perhaps a little, this week I played 2 modern tournaments and got absolutely no victories... Before that, it's always been soo close. Especially at the week before this, and I've made no changes in design. I can only put it down to the fact that the players know that I will bring along mill, and have compensated for it. It's such a small group I play within, so it's very likely that's what's happening. I'll just have to upscale the battle once more :) In legacy it's doubtfull if I keep the leyline, but I will have to try it out some more there!
SOULOFMIRRODIN: You wrote somewhere else that I should let people decide for themselves if the card is bad or not, and then you go elsewhere and say "Don't use it". You also say that my logic is flawed, but in your examples you use specific situations, while it is clear that leyline of singularity can be played in many ways, fitting the individual needs of playstyle, for example you write that if you had two crabs and a leyline you would want to play both instead of putting down the leyline. Well do so! Then you write that you don't want to sweep with it later because you might lose the crabs, and I sort of think that if you can play the leyline as sweep, then you would have 4 lands, which means that 2 crabs will have milled 18 cards together. In such a case keep the leyline in hand and continue. It's more likely that the crabs have been killed which means you can play the leyline as a sweeper, in any case, the leyline can be played intelligently at all times, weighing when to use it or not to use it. Don't just think of it as an anoyance. Be creative.
Do you think proteus staff will be any good in this? You use it on their best creature, and there is some chance that the replaced creature is one they already have in their deck. Worst case you can use it on your own stuff! CHEWRIDA: Thanx for spreading the wonders of the leyline, with luck it will kill the decktypes we've talked about :)
Wow, so the leyline takes on a life of it's own! DEMONKING28: Do you think proteus staff will be any good in this? You use it on their best creature, and there is some chance that the replaced creature is one they already have in their deck. Worst case you can use it on your own stuff!
Nice produce, considering the restrictions :)
I'll argument for why the leyline can fit into a creatureheavy deck: First of all, the leyline can be built around, cutting some critters and including others, this will also make a deck less vulnerable against surgical/extirpate. Second, in any matchup with creatures, the leyline will allow both players to have only one of each creature, and if your creatures are the biggest, the leyline will work to your advantage. Third, instead of putting it in play at the beginning of the game, keep it on the hand, play one of each creatures only, then at the hight of the game play it, making sure your opponent suffers for having multiple creatures in play.
Hmm, since this is your post, I wont copy/paste the reasons why leyline can be played in creatureheavy decks :)
EXTERMINATUS EXTREMIS: Forgive SOULOFMIRRODIN for disregarding the leyline. I've been posting everywhere about the wonders of that card, so he's stalking me a bit to tell all millers with creatureheavy decks to avoid it. I'll argument for why the leyline can fit into a creatureheavy deck: First of all, the leyline can be built around, cutting some critters and including others, this will also make a deck less vulnerable against surgical/extirpate. Second, in any matchup with creatures, the leyline will allow both players to have only one of each creature, and if your creatures are the biggest, the leyline will work to your advantage. Third, instead of putting it in play at the beginning of the game, keep it on the hand, play one of each creatures only, then at the hight of the game play it, making sure your opponent suffers for having multiple creatures in play. That's the initial way to play it! Now I will move on to why it fits your design much more than others... CRYPTOPLASM: These fun creatures will now work as removal, as you copy your opponents best legendary creature. Pretty fun stuff. KOR SKYFISHER: If you can, aim at putting the leyline in play from your oppeninghand, and you can then speed up the skyfisher, and use the leyline as sweep later. Or lategame you can always remove the leyline with the kor if you can see an advantage in having multiples. SOULOFMIRRODIN: Hope you can see the logic in this case :) And I don't mind you following my posts, as the best way to promote any card is a good old fashioned argument about it's pro's and cons!
CHEWRIDA/SOULOFMIRRODIN: I'll admit that creatureheavy mill isn't my usual area, but I'll still defend the concept of using the leyline in a creatureheavy deck. First of all it can always be put in the sideboard, stored away to be played only when you encounter the right deck. (There are so many in modern that's it's got to count for something) Then you could thin out 1 card from each 4 off making sure that chances are that you just get 1. The reason for keeping the leyline will be the following. If both you and your opponent have a limited amount of creatures in play, it is likely that the one with the biggest creatures will win! So who will have the largest creatures? If the answer is you, then why not use this fact. You can always keep creatures in your hand. You will store them in safety against sweeplike behaviour as you are sort of forced to play it safe, and if your opponent sweeps, they can't just throw down an army to kill you off before you can build your own, so even in a creature-heavy deck the leyline of singularity will be of use. Speaking of sweep, when you get the leyline in hand, you may opt to not play it from your oppening hand, but instead keep it in there as a sweeper, where you carefully pick what you put into play, and as your opponent builds up his creatures to stop/overwhelm yours, you play the leyline and watch any doubles go away, while enjoying that you yourself have not played any doubles at all. If we are talking legacy, the leyline is not that good yet, but I'm working on it. (Karakas is a start, and I'm thinking clones too, or the staff that exchanges a creature in play with the first creature in their library) SOULOFMIRRODIN: You mentioned at a couple of posts that leyline of the void is better against dredge than leyline of singularity. I will have to dissagree. If you mill into several narcomoebas they will suicide. If they have more than one bridges, all their tokens will be gone. They will only be able to have 1 of each critter in play at any time, which really lowers their chances of using their dread return. Dredge will be really uphill against leyline of singularity. With leyline of the void they can always attempt to go ordinary aggro with their deck, by just playing their bloodghasts, and other creatures by ordinary use of lands. (Unless they are a landless version), so in my view the singularity is actually just a wee bit better. And you can always build around the leyline, lessening the amounts of creatures you have, which will also make you less vulnerable to surgical extraction or extirpate.
What's the theme?
STRATEGICMUFFINEXHAUSTED: In the case of card-drawing, the opponent will draw first, thus getting cardadvantage for doing zip. At your turn the cardadvantage disappears, but they had card advantage for a turn, and that's always a bad situation. leyline of singularity is extremely efficient in modern. It takes out tokens, elfcombo, splintertwin, eggs (Second sunrise), drdgelike stuff, and generally slows beatdown a little.
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